[CJW]

All, I was wondering what your thoughts were on the following:

Myself and a few friends run a website (www.iombirding.co.uk), which contains a Recent Reports section aswell as photographs and 'Where to go' information.
This is a non-profit making website and we run it purely for the pleasure it gives us and others, and also to give the Isle of Man birding scene a higher profile.
Recently I discovered that a very well known (and profit-making) company has been lifting our Recent Reports information directly from our site and posting it on theirs. I wrote to them and asked them to confirm that this was the case and they freely admitted that it was (albeit dressed-up amongst a few compliments). I told them that we were OK with this practice and that we were even a little flattered by it.
However, I have since discovered (today, in fact) that the same company has also lifted information, word-for-word, from our 'where to go' section (actually called 'Birding Hotspots'). This information includes directions to a number of sites, what can be seen there and what recent highlights the locality has had. It is exactly this kind of information which has made us the leading point of reference for any visiting birders and, for that matter, locals.
We have received not a word of apology or thanks, nor have we been credited with being the source of the information.

Happy New Year to you all,
Chris

[Bluetail]

In my own, non-birding, field the authors of academic papers usually scrupulous about acknowledging information supplied by others, even if it is unpublished. (I find the way they continually doff their mortar boards to each other in their footnotes quite endearing!) I have been mentioned in despatches myself several times and take it as a great compliment. However, if information I supplied were passed off as the author's own I would regard that as unethical.

I would view your case in much the same way. I hope they are not using your infomation to make money.

Jason

[CJW]

Hi Jason,
they charge a subscription fee for access to the information generally.
I am talking about the highest profile website for bird news in Britain.

[IanF]

Hi CJW,

I think they are well out of order. I can understand your feelings to a certain extent about being pleased they should be interested in the information you have provided, but I don't think they should have been given permission to lift info from your website. Fair enough if they want to direct their members to your site to view the info, as you'd gain extra visitors, but even that should be with your permission. How about asking for a percentage of their subs or a fee for use of articles from your site? They are stealing the knowledge and experience that your members have been willing to share. I guess if your members are happy with it then it's okay, but I doubt I'd be as generous.

At the very least I'd say you should have a reciprocal link on their site and be given credit for each article used.

[Bluetail]

Hi Chris. I agree with Ian. I know the law surrounding the internet is a mess, but I would have thought that an English site taking intellectual property without permission from another source in England would be open to action in the English courts for breach of copyright.

Jason

[CJW]

Trouble is Jason, we have our own legislation over here and I don't know if/how it differs from UK law.

[Bluetail]

Opps, sorry, Chris - forgot where you are.

Jason

[birdman]

Originally Posted by CJW

Trouble is Jason, we have our own legislation over here and I don't know if/how it differs from UK law.

Threaten them with the birch, CJ, or some other appropriate punishment... there must be something you can dig up in the House of Keys (?) to put the wind up 'em?

Seriously though, looks like intellectual theft to me.

[Stephen Dunstan]

Chris,

In terms of the recent reports, as you probably know there isn't much you can do about that once you have made the records 'public'.

I wouldn't disagree with what everyone has said about the rest, though of course directions could be claimed to have been independently derived and recent highlights could be compiled from sightings you have made public without being copied. I'm not saying they haven't copied your material and understand why you would be frustrated.

Stephen.

[Adey Baker]

Assuming that you've got a 'copyright' warning on your website, why not send them a bill equal to the subscription to the site for as long as they have your article on the site.

Alternatively, you could get someone to contact them saying that they have just visited the IOM and have found the information on their site (which they had been relying on - lay it on thick!) completely useless! That will put them in a dilemma!

[Jane Turner]

ASk for a voluntary contribution to your running costs

[Steve Lister]

Personally I think that the information services should be expected to pay for the information that they are given, or which they pick up from websites. The one that I subscribe to has recently started offering text-message credits for sightings info submitted by texting; I would much rather have money knocked off my subscription, which I know at least two other services do - they do not give you enough credit though.

Happy New Year to everyone
Steve

[Mike D]

Hi CJW
You should ask them for royalties and a mention of your site. Any decent site would certainly give the second.

[Andrew]

That is downright scandalous!

[Edward woodwood]

Chris, if you have copyright somewhere on there you are entitled to some recompense, perhaps not regarding the sightings but more likely for the where to go info. This was done in the past with an overseas trip report that I know of that was taken and used without the authors permission and the settlement was four figures (just!).


seems that's just how people are these days

[helenh]

Chris,

We take a hard line with anyone we find breaching our copyright. We insist on either full attribution of our material or that our stuff is removed from the site. We pursue the latter course if the request for full attribution is ignored.

Basically I take the view that my site is non-commercial and requires a significant amout of my (and my partner's) time to keep up to date. We have a number of useful contacts who allow us to publish their material on our site and we therefore guard the content very carefully. So far we haven't had to resort to legal action but we have invoked official bodies (eg the Better Business Bureau in the US) to support us when pursuing intellectual copyright issues.

We almost always allow "not for profit" organisations to use our material when they ask. But we stomp fast and hard when we discover theft.

Hope this view helps.
helenh

[walwyn]

Originally Posted by CJW

Trouble is Jason, we have our own legislation over here and I don't know if/how it differs from UK law.

I'd have thought that UK law would apply if it is a UK company operating in the UK.

[CJW]

Possibly so, walwyn.
We do have a note on our homepage which states that 'All articles, photographs and other materials on this site are the sole ownership of Isle of Man Birding'. But it is only a small piece at the bottom of the homepage. Would this constitute a copyright?

Chris

[helenh]

Originally Posted by CJW

Possibly so, walwyn.
We do have a note on our homepage which states that 'All articles, photographs and other materials on this site are the sole ownership of Isle of Man Birding'. But it is only a small piece at the bottom of the homepage. Would this constitute a copyright?

Chris

Not an expert on copyright law but I don't think you have to have any statement ... you just need to be able to prove the material is yours. But your statement would constitute a copyright notice (regardless of the size of the font or the positioning of the statement).

[KCFoggin]

CJ as long as it can be read easily, irregardless to where it is on your page, your statement of sole ownership would appy.

[robinm]

Originally Posted by helenh

Not an expert on copyright law but I don't think you have to have any statement ... you just need to be able to prove the material is yours. But your statement would constitute a copyright notice (regardless of the size of the font or the positioning of the statement).

That is correct Helen. I have been involved with setting up commercial web sites and have had meetings with lawyers to discuss issues such as this. While they recommend that you put a copyright notice on a site, legally, there is no need to do so. Copyright inherently exists in what you publish.

[Richard]

Hi CJW,

I cannot comment of the legalities but am more 'anxious' to know whether you are still going to post information on your website! I would ask the same question of similar websites - will the thought that someone may copy from the site make you less likely to post information in the future?

As you may remember, I visit the IOM once or twice a year and value the time that you and the others put in to the site - long may it continue.

Richard Rogers

[helenh]

Hi Richard,

The fact that my material is stolen on a fairly regular basis doesn't actually put me off maintaining my website (it deals with birding in Kenya which is a bit of a niche market!). Personally I find that the positive aspects of maintaining the site far outweigh the annoyance of finding someone is using your material. For me these positive aspects include being part of the Kenyan "birding scene" despite being a UK resident who is only able to manage an annual visit. I get to publish the latest Kenyan sightings and get first hand reports from some of the top experts in the country.

However I do think it's important to take action when you find someone has stolen your material. Some people simply don't recognise that intellectual copyright exists and don't realise the energy that goes into maintaining a not-for-profit site. Most people when challenged are apologetic and say something like "I didn't know it was copyright". There's always the odd person who takes the "so sue me" stance but they are few and far between (in my experience) - and they tend to change their tune when they receive an email from their ISP or from the professional body to which they belong!

On a lighter note I was rather surprised to find that the latest rip-off from my site was perpetrated by a BirdForum Birds Database editor!!!!! The up-side of this was that their "copy and paste" from my site highlighted a punctuation error that I hadn't previosuly picked up. :)

Helen

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by helenh

Some people simply don't recognise that intellectual copyright exists

In my experience rather more don't take the copyright law seriously because they think they can get away with it.

Jason

[CJW]

Originally Posted by Richard

Hi CJW,

I cannot comment of the legalities but am more 'anxious' to know whether you are still going to post information on your website! I would ask the same question of similar websites - will the thought that someone may copy from the site make you less likely to post information in the future?

As you may remember, I visit the IOM once or twice a year and value the time that you and the others put in to the site - long may it continue.

Richard Rogers

Hi Richard, thanks for those kind words and you needn't worry, we will still be maintaining the site as normal.
There'll be no update today though - it's bloody 'orrible out there!

Chris

PS Still no response from the miscreants!