[Ranger James]

Anyone looked at this load of rubbish masquerading as conservation? http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk

My concern is that verbal/written sparrowhawk persecution preceeds physical sparrowhawk persecution.

Bunch of red-necks.

[Elizabeth Bigg]

Haven't time to read this just now - had a quick glance, but it's in my Favourites, so I'll look at it more carefully this evening.

[desgreene]

Are they the cat club in disguise?

Des.

[Ranger James]

I thought not to begin with, and was lulled into a false sense of scientific security. They state that farming practices, loss of habitat and cat predation is all a factor, and then proceed to rain a torrent of anti-sparrow hawk propaganda down on the poor unsuspecting browser.
What really gets me about this site is that it operates under the guise of reasoned conservation, not just the knee-jerk, overly sentimental, selfishly possessive clap-trap that it so palpably is.

[simondix]

No they are trying to put themselves over as a Conservation minded body. All they are really interested in is persecution of raptors. They will deny it of course. There have been several articles in the birding media about them. I think I remember there being some link to Pigeon fanciers.

[Bluetail]

Shouldn't bother, Elizabeth. It's mostly garbage. If you believe the site, cats and Sparrowhawks between them kill 155,000,000 UK passerines (viz. "songbirds") every year. Might be worth asking them how much they think that leaves for the Stoats, Weasels, Rats, Peregrines, Hobbies, Merlins, Kestrels etc! Not, unfortunately, that they will be interested in letting facts get in the way when hyperbole will do their job more effectively.

Jason

[desgreene]

Not only the language (cats kill birds but apparently sparrowhawks slaughter them), but the logic also is laughable. They seem to think that if they have disputed somebody's study that they have therefore proved there own point.

Des.

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by simondix

I think I remember there being some link to Pigeon fanciers.

Funny, that was my first thought too!

Jason

[desgreene]

Originally Posted by simondix

No they are trying to put themselves over as a Conservation minded body. All they are really interested in is persecution of raptors. They will deny it of course. There have been several articles in the birding media about them. I think I remember there being some link to Pigeon fanciers.

Anybody seen any figures for "song bird" deaths from collission with racing pigeons ? At least those that have escaped being hit by the wind turbines

Des

[robinm]

The trouble is the unsuspecting public reads this sort of tosh and accepts it. It is particularly galling when it is repeated on prime time TV. Did anyone else see Jeremy Clarkson (that well known bird expert ) say much the same thing on "Have I Got News for You" a few months ago. He should stick to talking about cars - something he knows about, allegedly.

[helenol]

The best thing about the website was the list of occupations of the members. So, that's alright then!

[Bluetail]

Yes, Helen, very authotitative, weren't they? And who are the "ornithologists", I wonder? Like Bill Oddie, I don't think I've ever met an ornithologist!

Jason

[deboo]

Where I grew up during the 60's-70's I saw loads of 'Songbirds' and never a Sparrowhawk.
When I return, I see fewer 'Songbirds', but still no Sparrowhawks....just loads of new houses/roads/industrial estates/hedgeless fields and acres of tarmac.........not a nice view, even for a passing Sparrowhawk!
Dave.

[jpoyner]

If it's any consolation the website doesn't look as if it's been active since March last year! The latest member news was April 2002. Interestingly in this section there are only three posts, two by the same person!
I remember seeing a poster last year from this group, strangely it was in the tearoom of a rather large Scottish castle.



JP

[alan_rymer]

Originally Posted by simondix

No they are trying to put themselves over as a Conservation minded body. All they are really interested in is persecution of raptors. They will deny it of course. There have been several articles in the birding media about them. I think I remember there being some link to Pigeon fanciers.

Extract from Royal Pigeon Racers Association Website.

On Sunday last I attended the meeting of the SongBird Survival charity group. This organisation now has its charitable status and it was the first meeting of the trustees. There are still several issues to resolve but the way is now clear for this body to challenge all that we read about the RSPB and other organisations that seem to put the survival of our songbirds secondary to other species. Interestingly, we received a note from the chairman, Keith Pulman, of an article that appeared in the Birdwatching magazine that alleged that this group was nothing more than a cover for disgruntled pigeon fanciers and it had a hidden agenda. Well, (and I hope the author of that article is reading!) there are 2 pigeon fanciers who are also bird lovers on the board, plus me. In addition there are several ornithologists, a farmer, a farmer’s daughter and a wildlife issue campaigner who are all cheesed off with the line taken by other agencies over the decline of our songbirds. Yes, the raptor issue will have a direct influence on pigeon racers but it also had a direct and catastrophic effect on grouse moors, gardens and the countryside. You can help by contacting the SBS at PO Box 1464 Bristol BS99 3PB for more details.

Peter Bryant, General Manager

So no. There is no connection with pigeon racers nor even intimations on the Songbird Survival site that Sparrowhawks predate or have have any effect on pigeons

[Bluetail]

I posted the website link to uk.rec.birdwatching. A well-respected source there has commented:

"This has been in existence a couple of years. Two of the founders didn't reveal that they are leading lights in the Scottish and English racing pigeon organisations, one of them being the Secretary of the Scottish Homing Union."

and:

"Note that the name is Save our *Songbirds*, so their main overt target is the Sparrowhawk. Homing Unions already target Peregrines and this is another way of them getting at Sparrowhawks, too, which they claim take pigeons from around lofts. The general public probably couldn't care less about racing pigeon losses, hence the "songbirds"."

Jason

[Cuckoo-shrike]

It's a really crass website, isn't it? Why do they think that the mention of e.g. JCB operators, Accountants or Judges amongst their membership gives them credence???
Apologies to any members of these most worthy professions who may be reading this.

[Grousemore]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's a really crass website, isn't it? Why do they think that the mention of e.g. JCB operators, Accountants or Judges amongst their membership gives them credence???
Apologies to any members of these most worthy professions who may be reading this.

JCB Operator is certainly a worthy profession;not sure about the other two though

[GreatHornedOwl]

Quote from that website:

"Populations of some of our once common birds such as song thrushes, yellow hammers, linnets, bullfinches, tree sparrows, as well as ground nesting birds such as the skylark, lapwing and curlew, to name but a few, have all declined in the last twenty years or so.

The Causes

Initally loss of habitat associated with changes in agriculture"


... Don't know about Lapwing and Curlew, but all the others have declined indeed mainly due to habitat loss and changes in agriculture. So here they have a good point.
Sparrowhawks are officially said to have increased in Belgium too but I still have to see one where I live; it could be that they just fly too fast however.:)

One wonders, if the food supply (songbirds) of the Sparrow hawk decreases, why then are there increasing numbers of Sparrow hawks? You would expect a dramatic decline of sparrowhawk numbers if they really only eat rare bullfinches and yellowhammers. It's impossible they eat millions of bullfinches and yellowhammers, there simply aren't that much of them in the whole of Europe.

Could it be that the Sparrowhawk is, instead, feeding on some other common, succesful species instead of the rarities that are mentioned? Blackbirds and collared doves for the female perhaps? Some warbler species for the male?
I would almost have mentioned Magpies as a prey for the female, but that seems unlikely (just a feeling).

Anyone here knows about the diet of Sparrowhawks??? Has it ever been investigated what they actually do eat??? I personally think it simply can't be those rare bullfinches, but they surely must eat SOMETHING ??!!??

[GreatHornedOwl]

Well, problem solved then - Sparrowhawks don't eat rare Bullfinches and Yellowhammers, and just as I suspected they have increased (?have they?) together with their prey - the ones that are named above are also common species which have increased in numbers.

So I suggest Sparrowhawks should be left alone then. I finally might get to see one if there's really enough of them around.

[Ranger James]

Thank goodness some other share by boiling blood!
This matter about raptors being bad for the countryside!?! they are teh bloody countryside! Pigeon fanciers have appalled me since a child - if they want to race thier pets theough wild habitat surely the risk involved should be part of thier sport?
And anyone using false sentimentality about wildlife to further their casue in this way is also rather pathetic. Right rant over, nice to meet you all!
James

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Originally Posted by Ranger James

.....if they want to race thier pets theough wild habitat surely the risk involved should be part of thier sport?
James

Well ranted James! Absolutely!!
This has parallels with an incident down here a few years back when a certain local businessman was taking to court for shooting a heron that was raiding his fish-pond. The points were made that
i) if he is going to provide a fast-food takeaway for local wildlife, he has to face the consequences;
ii) he could have covered the pond with protective netting for considerably less than the fine he received!
Aquila

[saluki]

When I lived in Argyll we were plagued by a female Spar one winter (usually it is one particular individual raptor that causes problems, not a whole species). Our pigeons weren't racers, just pets, and we readily accepted that some would be taken by predators (there was a Peregrine nest within sight of the house) - but this particular Spar was something else! She decimated the flock from around forty birds to a dozen very frightened ones that hardly dared leave the shed. One bird, a white Frillback, had been rescued from her clutches, but her back had been partially eaten. The last straw came when she started entering the shed to kill them! One day we managed to catch her, box her up, pop a red pigeon ring on her leg and give her to a friend who was driving down to Glasgow the next day - he consequently released her on farmland on the outskirts of Glasgow.

Two weeks later we heard the chooks alarm calling and were just in time to see a Spar snatch up what we thought was a OE Game chick. She landed on the drive and my uncle managed to sneak down and take a couple of pics of her. Two surprises: the chick was in fact a baby rabbit (only the second time I've witnessed a Spar killing anything bar birds); and the Spar had a bright red pigeon ring on her leg!

Anyone who doesn't think raptors can cause problems with livestock, game and colonies of rare birds is living in cloud cuckoo land to be honest. However, as I stated before I believe it is individuals who cause the problems (and very few of those), so the call for the wholesale slaughter of raptors is ridiculas IMO. Personally I would never kill any raptor (and I realise I'll probably get flack from some for breaking the law when relocating the Spar), I've always believed it is prey numbers that control predators, not vice-versa.

It is all too easy to accuse anyone who wants to cull raptors of being a 'redneck' when one hasn't been on the receiving end of raptor problems - name-calling simply inflames the situation IMO.

saluki

[Ranger James]

I do not mean to incite name calling and I appologise. I understand the 'problems' wild predators cause to domesticated livestock in this country as i have family ties with various farms in North Devon and worked for some time on an orgganic chicken farm in mid devon. Foxes and Buzzards all had thier eye on the glut of chicken that were availible and of course they should. It is perfectly natural - like shooting fish in a barrel - when such a surplus of fat, overfed and lazy animals are aggrigatd in one area it will naturally become a target for opourtunistic predators.
It is the vilification of a species, or individual in human terms that gets my goat. These birds are doing what they need to do to survive, and we are providing them with the prey to do so.
If i was an avid collector of sunflower seeds imagine my horror when i saw a vicious flock of goldfinches decimating the collection with no mercy. I know that's facetious, but it has paralels.
It will always be a question of priority, and fish fanciers see herons - chrikey, even the mass-adored otter - as blood-thirsty killers hell-bent on the destruction of thier collection.
At the end of the day it is much easier to replace the collection.

[GreatHornedOwl]

Vicious flocks of Goldfinches, hahahahaha ! And psychopathic Sparrowhawks ! This is just hysterical !

Seriously, I wish I could see a psycho sparrowhawk persecute a flock of those mean goldfinches. And perhaps some of those nasty bullfinches as well.

I've never heard about a bird of prey extirpating a whole cot of doves, but I believe you - it would be just a testimony to the adaptability of that species.

In fact, it's like those bloodthirsty Grey herons who murder all the expensive koi and goldfish people keep in their garden ponds. I personally heard about a guy who lost his temper after being robbed for the second time by the same heron : he grabbed a shotgun and blasted the bird to shreds.