[Mono]

I've just been playing around with a friend's Panasonic FZ18 and was very impressed with the whole package. Read lots of nice reviews so I've just been down to my local camera shop to part with some cash when the assistant pointed out the Olympus 570UZ and the Nikon P80...

So does anyone have any opinions/first hand experience of their relative merits. It would be used as a general all purpose camera, birds, other wildlife, holiday snaps, taking up mountains, weddings, parties etc.

I know they will all be more noisy, less sharp and slower than a DSLR, but that would be no good for dragging up a crag and cost more for the 28 -500mm experience.

My first thoughts.

FZ18 Plus:- Cheaper, Lots of modes, Light, RAW Minus:- Less Pixels, Too many modes!

570UZ Plus:- More Pixels, 26-520mm, RAW, AA Batteries Minus:- More Money, heavier, Average reviews

P80 Plus:- Simpler to use, More Pixels Minus:- No RAW, Less Zoomage, More Money,

The specs are here.

So what does the world think?

[njlarsen]

I do think you should see it as a negative is someone has put in additional pixels in a chip with the same surface area as the FZ18 has; all the reviews say it has too many pixels already resulting in additional noice. Only if you go bigger, with heavier body and lens, should you want additional pixels.

take also a look at this http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=114218 thread

Niels

[K-Lex]

I don't think you can have a 'do it all' camera like that. You certainly can't have a camera that's excellent for birding, wildlife and holiday snaps that just fits in your pocket.
Compacts have shutter lag which renders them almost useless for birding and wildlife unless you're very lucky.
A friend of mine works for Mamiya and has said that having all these MP's in compacts is largely pointless because the lenses cannot record the detail and the sensors are too small. It's not about number of MP's, it's about quality. The performance of a 6mp DSLR will pulverise that of a 10mp compact.
Think of it this way, if there was a camera that could fit in your pocket and be an excellent birding/wildlife/landscape/wedding/portrait camera, we'd all have one - simply, it doesn't exist. Decide where your main priority lies and buy a camera accordingly.

For what it's worth, the best compromise will either be a Canon G9 or a Leica Digilux.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by Mono

It would be used as a general all purpose camera, birds, other wildlife, holiday snaps, taking up mountains, weddings, parties etc.

I know they will all be more noisy, less sharp and slower than a DSLR, but that would be no good for dragging up a crag and cost more for the 28 -500mm experience.

My first thoughts.

FZ18 Plus:- Cheaper, Lots of modes, Light, RAW Minus:- Less Pixels, Too many modes!

570UZ Plus:- More Pixels, 26-520mm, RAW, AA Batteries Minus:- More Money, heavier, Average reviews

P80 Plus:- Simpler to use, More Pixels Minus:- No RAW, Less Zoomage, More Money

I have the FZ 18 and there have been a number of recent threads discussing it and similar cameras. I find it to be an excellent, easy-to-use compact camera for birding shots when the light is good. It is fast enough in most situations and the burst mode goes up to seven frames per second (four in fine mode). I personally do not see much difference between the quality of shots people get with it (and similar cameras) and the shots from DSLR's (though I have yet to see side-by-side comparison tests). I also do not see anything in the specs of the other cameras you are considering that makes me wish I had those instead. I agree with Niels that, other things being equal, more pixels in these cameras (10 megapixels versus 8 megapixels for the FZ 18) is actually a downside.

I should add though that I have primarily used it for bird photography (while you say you are looking for a general-purpose camera), and not much indoors for example. I am not sure how well it would perform in those types of low light situations.

Here is a link to some of the photos I have taken after using the camera for just a few days (and I am only a casual photographer):

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....83#post1130683

Best,
Jim

[RAH]

You should also consider the Canon S5IS.

[kittykat23uk]

For anyone not wanting to carry around a DSLR and a bunch of lenses the Panasonic FZ18 is an ideal choice and I have yet to find a review that puts either the Olympus or the Nikon P80 above it. the FZ18 is incredibly light and responsive, a great travel camera. I have had one since October last year, it has been to India with me and I am so glad I had this camera. If you are into birds, then the FZ18 is probably your best bet as it has a really good zoom range and good 28mm wide angle for those scenic shots. Its Macro capability is not fantastic but you can get add-on lenses that improve this.

If you don't need the range but want more manual controls there is also the FZ50 to consider - this has a manual focusing ring, a bigger sensor (which produces slightly better image quality) and An articulating screen, but at the expense of both a bit of the wide angle and the telephoto end of the zoom range. If you plan on taking movies, then the Canon S5IS is said to has a better movie mode than the FZ18.

Also would second what other members have said- more MP definitely not a plus with these cameras! A link to my gallery is in my sig. Just do a search for FZ18.

ETA here's a few indoor shots:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/8773601...57600503017925
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8773601...57600503017925
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8773601...57600503017925

[tjsimonsen]

Originally Posted by J. Moore

I personally do not see much difference between the quality of shots people get with it (and similar cameras) and the shots from DSLR's (though I have yet to see side-by-side comparison tests). I also do not see anything in the specs of the other cameras you are considering that makes me wish I had those instead. I agree with Niels that, other things being equal, more pixels in these cameras (10 megapixels versus 8 megapixels for the FZ 18) is actually a downside.

I have a Canon S5IS and a 350D. The latter (combined with a 100-400L) is my prefered birding/wildlife camera. As a snap shot camera the 5SIS is fine, but it is light years behind the 350D in almost all aspects - except for being handy! Which is why I bought it - it allows me to get shots I otherwise wouldn't get because I normally don't carry my DSLR everywhere. I have got some decent bird/wildlife shots with it. One of the biggest problems with the S5IS (and I guess , most P&S superzooms) is that higher ISO settings (200 and higher) are virtually useless due to the amount of noise produced by the tiny csensor

Thomas

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by tjsimonsen

One of the biggest problems with the S5IS (and I guess , most P&S superzooms) is that higher ISO settings (200 and higher) are virtually useless due to the amount of noise produced by the tiny csensor

I mostly agree. As I said in my initial post, I think the FZ18 is an excellent camera for "birding shots when the light is good", and when the light is good you do not need to use high ISO settings, so noise is not a problem. But I think "virtually useless" is an exaggeration for high ISO settings, and I would say above 200 creates some problems. Some people also claim to have good success with noise reduction software.

my two cents,
Jim

[tjsimonsen]

Hi Jim,

"Virtually useless" may be a bit harsh, I agree. But at least the Canon's built-in noise reduction does create a fairly hefty "water-color smear" from ISO200 and up, which kills a lot of details.

In the end it comes down to how critical (or perhaps hysterical) you are. And I admit that when it comes to details vs. NR I'm probably a bit on the hysterical side....
Off course the Pentax allows you tho shoot in RAW, so you can do your own NR in designated programs like Neat Image.

Thomas

[Mono]

Thanks evryone for the advice.

I am now the proud owner of a FZ18.

[Pete Mella]

Originally Posted by Mono

Thanks evryone for the advice.

I am now the proud owner of a FZ18.

Let us know how you get on... I'm considering one myself.

[Zenzero]

Originally Posted by NaturePete

Let us know how you get on... I'm considering one myself.

Me too.

I'm especially interested in how you find the electronic viewfinder. I have a Fuji S5700 that I wanna upgrade from.
One of the big problems is the Electronic viewfinder is useless in certain conditions - bright light or small target. (Needs experience in the field to tell this)
Half the time I have to guess whether the bird is in the frame or not. Don't wanna waste my money if it is the same on the FZ18. I'd rather get a DSLR and miss out on the portability that I otherwise love.

Oh and another problem I had was the manual focus was too fiddly to bother with, which is annoying if the auto won't work in the circumstance

[njlarsen]

I have taken the first 2-300 shots with the FZ18, and I love the viewfinder. For composing artistic shots it would probably not be good enough, but for finding a bird or at least the right area, it surely beats using a LCD. One other positive is that the spot AF really looks like a spot on the LCD/viewfinder, not like the large areas I have seen on several nikon, canon, and one Fuji P&S cameras. It does not lock on to the right level first time every time when a bird sits among branches, but it has so far been possible to move the camera slightly and have it lock at the right level.

The image quality: I have not seen enough images on my PC to be sure. The first thing I did, however, was to set NR to the minimum possible; I have a good NR program on the PC if I need it.

Niels

[wavering]

Originally Posted by Zenzero

I'm especially interested in how you find the electronic viewfinder

I have an FZ18 and currently take about 300 shots per day with it! In bright sunlight I use the "hold it up to your eye" EVF (press the button labelled "EVF/LCD") which is a bit crude but works on the most dazzlingly white beach. Incidentally, you focus the EVF with a little wheel thingy near the button that says "OPEN" (no doubt it is in the manual but life is too short)

I also have a Panasonic DMC-FX50 which I keep in my shirt pocket. For a photo taken with the latter see:

http://www.thingysoft.com/myblog/ima...g_P1190937.jpg

All the other photos on my blog (see signature below) were taken with the FZ18. I will be buying something big and heavy for lugging around with a tripod in a while (we will be hiring a team of porters) but the FZ18 is great for very quick candid shots

[wavering]

As an example of the Panasonic DMC-FZ18 here are two shots from my seat in a bar opposite Gibraltar.

On the Left is P1110877.JPG with maximum Wide Angle
On the Right is P1110879.JPG with maximum Zoom

Apart from reduction to 1024 width as required by this forum they have not been messed with.

[Mono]

Well I've been having a play around with it and well it's a mixed bag.

Likes: The zoom.I like having the 500mm reach, and also the 28mm, (for years I had a succession of compacts with 28mm lens and you get use to what the world looks like through that lens.) Its lightweight means you can carry it around and hardly notice, it's not a chore to lug about.

Dislikes: The image quality! In anything but good light it takes very noisy and fringy pictures, not a patch on my existing Sony W12. I also found that in some circumstances it will not take pictures, I was at a concert, low light couldn't use flash, I knew the pictures wouldn't be perfect but I just wanted snaps as a record and as hard and as often as I pressed the button it would think and flash icons on the screen but would not take the picture.

This was supposed to be a new general purpose camera for me, something that went wider and longer than my existing camera, but the quality of the product generated means it will be second fiddle to my old camera.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by Mono

Dislikes: The image quality! In anything but good light it takes very noisy and fringy pictures, not a patch on my existing Sony W12. I also found that in some circumstances it will not take pictures, I was at a concert, low light couldn't use flash, I knew the pictures wouldn't be perfect but I just wanted snaps as a record and as hard and as often as I pressed the button it would think and flash icons on the screen but would not take the picture.

This was supposed to be a new general purpose camera for me, something that went wider and longer than my existing camera, but the quality of the product generated means it will be second fiddle to my old camera.

Sorry to hear you are having problems. But I think the comments above suggested at least the possibility that there might be problems such as you are experiencing in low light situations. However, you might want to check to make sure you have limited the extent to which the camera can change the ISO setting for auto exposure purposes. I try to limit this so the camera will instead choose a slower shutter speed or wider aperture rather than a more generous ISO. And for bird photography, I now use aperture priority mode and select the widest aperture, which gives me the highest possible shutter speed.

Regarding indoor or nighttime photos, I have never tried those (as I indicated above), but there are various scene modes which should help out with them -- you may already be using them of course. And it should be possible to use manual override if the camera is refusing to take a picture (though I do not recall the details).

Hope this helps,
Jim

[Zenzero]

Thanks for your reports, Mono and wavering.

Mono, maybe your disappointment is a bit premature? Surely the point about it is not so much the image quality but that it is small and light and you will have it with you most, if not all, times when birding and it's got that range.

This is certainly the reason why I am considering it, and not the least for the fact that it has a burst mode of 3 fps.
The lack of this on my Fuji S5700 had me tearing my hair out (what there is left of it)

I agree with J Moore - there surely must be a way of getting the camera to shoot without flash in dark conditions. Check the manual again. On my Fuji it's just a matter of setting the flash to never fire under any conditions, then program mode will just give you a long exposure.

I'd like to know how you get on with birdies on your patch.

PS. Does it Beep on autofocus, can you suppress it?
I can't turn it off on the Fuji and it annoys people in hides (it annoys me anyway)

[wavering]

Originally Posted by Zenzero

Surely the point about it is not so much the image quality but that it is small and light and you will have it with you most, if not all, times when birding and it's got that range.

Precisely

Originally Posted by Zenzero

... and not the least for the fact that it has a burst mode of 3 fps

Yes it does and it usually works but mine can be temperamental

Originally Posted by Zenzero

... there surely must be a way of getting the camera to shoot without flash in dark conditions

Of course there is! You can set it to auto and just press the button! The aperture will stay open for maybe 10 seconds if you are shooting at night (see shots below from 16th June - not a bird, sorry). I appreciate that is probably not what real photogs to but it usually gets it right

Originally Posted by Zenzero

Does it Beep on autofocus

You can control every aspect. Mine is a totally beep and click free zone

[Pete Mella]

Well mine's ordered now... I'll post a few undoubtedly ropey first tries when it arrives!

[njlarsen]

The camera has a burst mode, but it also has a regular continuous mode which according to DPReview is as fast as a burst mode but you can continue beyond three snaps. My FZ18 stays in that mode always. I routinely set the iso to isoMax400 which does produce some noice (much better than my old coolpix 4500 though) but not more than I can live with. I have chosen to lower NR to -2 again because I can live with some noice; I have a good NR program on the PC if I need it.

Niels

[Pete Mella]

Well here are some shots with the FZ18, which I've been playing with over the last week.

It would be tricky to get great shots of small birds, unless they were very tame indeed, but some of the shots below I hop show that you can get decent record shots of small or far away birds, albeit ones that won't win you any photography competitions!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645@N08/2608833994/
Juvenile blackbird in a tree over my head, medium-good light. Cropped on Photoshop.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Tufted duck at opposite side of a lake to me, on extra-optical zoom, and cropped in Photoshop. Medium light.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Chiffchaff at maximum optical zoom. Good light.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Jackdaws on maximum optical zoom (IIRC), cropped in Photoshop. Good light (I think).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Goldfinches on extra-optical zoom, cropped and brightness/contrast adjusted in Photoshop. Good light.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Woodpigeon in flight. Medium light. High zoom.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605683713646/
Squirrel in garden, medium light, through window. Maximum optical zoom. Not been through Photoshop. Medium light.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645@N08/2608004109/
Brown hare, maximum extra-optical zoom, cropped on Photoshop. Terrible photo, but shows that if it was something rare or unusual you'd still get a recognisable shot out of it.

[njlarsen]

Some nice pictures in there. What iso was used on the tufted duck and the goldfinch shot?

thanks
Niels

[Pete Mella]

Cheers, Niels.

The goldfinches were ISO160, and the tufty was ISO640.

[Pete Mella]

OK, some more, taken yesterday at Old Moor nature reserve...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7420645...7605829381532/