[wavering]

I don't have to go bird spotting - they come to me. Anybody know what this is?

More photos here:
http://www.thingysoft.com/myblog/ima...2008-06-23.jpg

[rob stoff]

its a very badly injured immature Yellow-legged Gull

Rob

[wavering]

Originally Posted by rob stoff

its a very badly injured immature Yellow-legged Gull

Rob

That is sad. I had not realised that at the time and nor did anybody else. I will go up there and see if it is wandering around. If it is, what should we do?

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by Gillian_M

What??!!??!!

That'll just be KnockerNorton, birdforum's very own blunt instrument . . . .

( )

[Bonsaibirder]

I once found a King Rail on a road in Texas which had been run over by a car but was still alive. It was struggling but could only move its neck - the rest of its body was flattened beyond recognition. I killed it as quickly as I could. It wouldn't have lasted long but its suffering was devastating to watch.

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by Bonsaibirder

I once found a King Rail on a road in Texas which had been run over by a car but was still alive. It was struggling but could only move its neck - the rest of its body was flattened beyond recognition. I killed it as quickly as I could. It wouldn't have lasted long but its suffering was devastating to watch.

Presumably you were aware that they are quite flat to begin with . . .

On the 'putting animals out of their misery' score it does all depend on the circumstances, the actual suffering involved, likelihood of survival, those kind of factors.

'Cruel to be kind' reaches its ultimate expression in cases like the above. Maybe the gull would be an example of moving it elsewhere and letting it take its chances . . Some would say you're just putting off the inevitable . . . but not everyone can take the life of another.

Sure this has been debated elsewhere on BF. A bit of sensitivity doesn't come amiss sometimes though. . .

[KnockerNorton]

releasing a crippled bird? That is not only immoral, but it's also illegal in Britain (yes, I know it's in Gibraltar, but it's indicative).

'Takes its chances' means walking around, unable to fly, until it either starves, gets toyed with for a few hours by a cat until it dies from a thousand cuts, gets tormented by a small boy for a while etc etc. All of which are lingering, and all the time sit is stressed and suffering because it cannot escape the stressful situation of being grounded.

Kill it quickly. It's humane. To walk away is easy, but comdemns it to lingering suffering; it takes compassion and courage to do what is necessary.

[dantheman]

I'm imagining this thread has been moderated a little (Some missing posts, I think I see why. . . )

Since this isn't my thread or argument anyway, I don't really want to be drawn into an argument. No reason not to say it like it is, I totally can agree with you KN on your reasoning. . . .
On the other hand a newbie, visiting sensitive soul (Gillian?) or even the original poster may not have fully grasped where you were coming from in the original post.


Peace All

[KnockerNorton]

moderated?!!!! For offering practical advice? perhaps the moderators can suggest how to humanely euthanase an injured bird when no aid is available? Because sometimes it has to be done, and it is better that people know how to do it.

Or maybe they just go and watch Springwatch on C-Beebies and forget about it, imagining that it's gone to play with its friends?

Things die in nature, and suffering is rife, and sometimes the resposible thing to do is intervene to limit that suffering.

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by wavering

I will go up there and see if it is wandering around. If it is, what should we do?

There are several options . .

If easy to get to and seems to be really suffering/near the end, then one option is to end its misery as humanely as possible (send private message to KnockerNorton (or me) for best way to deal with this if unsure . . . ).

The other alternative is to see that it is as comfortable as possible (ie provide some drinking water if there is none around, let happen what is going to happen. . . )

If it seems feisty enough, but you think you can catch it without causing too much stress, do so eg by placing a coat over, securing it in a cardboard box and taking it somewhere where it can be in more natural surroundings away from more immediate pressure from eg dogs and people eg the coast if suitable area exists near you. . . it will either succomb, return to the food chain or survive a bit longer . . .

Hope this is useful . . .

dan

[Pluvius]

I completely agree with Knockernorton and had read posts before they were deleted. I reckon your method was as good as any. Sometimes you just have to do these things.
Yesterday I came home and my cat of 13.5 years came to see me but her backend was all over the place. I presume she had had a stroke. Thirty minutes later she was put down by the vet.

[DaveN]

I'm also with KN on this one. Sometimes you just have to do these things.

[KnockerNorton]

Originally Posted by dantheman

If it seems feisty enough, but you think you can catch it without causing too much stress, do so eg by placing a coat over, securing it in a cardboard box and taking it somewhere where it can be in more natural surroundings away from more immediate pressure from eg dogs and people eg the coast if suitable area exists near you. . . it will either succomb, return to the food chain or survive a bit longer . . .

Hope this is useful . . .

dan

Check this out, section 6 and 5(g). http://www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/1948-30o.pdf

releasing an animal that will then suffer is illegal in Gibraltar (as in UK). having in your possesion or control an animal that causes it uncecessary suffering by keeping it alive, is also illegal. The gull is crippled, it will not recover as it looks a severe injury of the carpal joint (which are extremely tricky to correct to allow useful flight again). The only legal course of action is euthanasia. To release it or leave it on the premises now is technically illegal (once it entered the premises it was under their control).

Sorry to be a killjoy, it's just the facts. Perhaps the Mods can offer some practical solutions of how to euthanase a bird in the absence of a vet? I eagerly await their further contribution to this thread, seeing as they didn't like my method.

[Bonsaibirder]

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

Sorry to be a killjoy, it's just the facts. Perhaps the Mods can offer some practical solutions of how to euthanase a bird in the absence of a vet? I eagerly await their further contribution to this thread, seeing as they didn't like my method.

For what it's worth I thought your suggestion was pretty practical. In my situation mentioned below I could not face ringing the bird's neck (I'm just a big wuss) so I had to do it some other way. Without going into details I tried to make it as quick and effective as possible.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

Check this out, section 6 and 5(g). http://www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/1948-30o.pdf

releasing an animal that will then suffer is illegal in Gibraltar (as in UK). having in your possesion or control an animal that causes it uncecessary suffering by keeping it alive, is also illegal. The gull is crippled, it will not recover as it looks a severe injury of the carpal joint (which are extremely tricky to correct to allow useful flight again). The only legal course of action is euthanasia. To release it or leave it on the premises now is technically illegal (once it entered the premises it was under their control).

Sorry to be a killjoy, it's just the facts.

If you look in the definition section of that law, you will see that "bird" and "animal" are defined as any "captive or domesticated" bird/animal. I could be wrong, but looking at the photos of this gull at the website, it appears that the gull is not captive but simply wandered in to a restaurant. (I have seen other birds do such things). If it is not a captive bird, the law you quote would appear to be inapplicable.

Best,
Jim

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

Check this out, section 6 and 5(g). http://www.gibraltarlaws.gov.gi/articles/1948-30o.pdf

releasing an animal that will then suffer is illegal in Gibraltar (as in UK). having in your possesion or control an animal that causes it uncecessary suffering by keeping it alive, is also illegal. The gull is crippled, it will not recover as it looks a severe injury of the carpal joint (which are extremely tricky to correct to allow useful flight again).

I think that's taking the letter of the law a little far. . .

In the act above, "Bird" refers to "captive or domestic birds". I don't think that one would normally apply to a wild bird which has been temporarily enclosed in a building or captured to move it somewhere else, surely???

Common sense (whatever that is!) is that killing a bird because it has a broken wing is not necessarily going to be the only and best option . . . I can't see why releasing it on a suitable quiet stretch of coastline where it may survive a season or so (or not maybe) before succombing is a bad thing . . .

[KnockerNorton]

If the bird is under your control, it is 'captive' A bird that cannot fly off, for whatever reason, and is in the same room as you, is 'captive'. It can hardly open the door itself, can it.

[dantheman]

Get the lawyers in . . .

[KnockerNorton]

Originally Posted by dantheman

I can't see why releasing it on a suitable quiet stretch of coastline where it may survive a season or so (or not maybe) before succombing is a bad thing . . .

Is that the Beatrix Potter Beach?! It will not last long, but will die a hell of a lot more slowly. How many crippled birds do you see wandering around? Anywhere? Birds that cannot fly don't live 'a season or two'. It's more like 'a day or two'.

If you transport it, then you have put it in captivity (eg a box, and a car). So tha law applies again. Unless you wish to shoo it all the way there?

[DaveN]

I get the feeling this thread could run a little longer.

[KnockerNorton]

Originally Posted by dantheman

Get the lawyers in . . .

Nah, I'm old skool. I've got a bag and a hammer!

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

If the bird is under your control, it is 'captive' A bird that cannot fly off, for whatever reason, and is in the same room as you, is 'captive'. It can hardly open the door itself, can it.

Well, first, how do you know that the gull cannot simply leave the same way it entered the room? There may well be an open door (it is summer after all). Second, I expect any reasonable judge would distinguish a truly captive bird from one that has been temporarily detained.

I expect the intent of the law was mostly to prevent people who are keeping captive animals for extended periods for economic reasons or as pets from simply releasing them in the wild whenever they get injured and/or using them as bait for hunting purposes. I agree with Dan that the law appears to have little relevance to this situation.

Best,
Jim

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

Is that the Beatrix Potter Beach?! It will not last long, but will die a hell of a lot more slowly. How many crippled birds do you see wandering around? Anywhere? Birds that cannot fly don't live 'a season or two'. It's more like 'a day or two'.

When Jemima Puddleduck and her friends underwent a cold spell one year, the local villagers knitted them woolly bootees to keep their feet warm . . .

Nah. I just don't think everyone's going to be able to hit a bird over the head because it has a broken wing. By the same reasoning, we should kill any lingering gulls or ducks we see in car parks or the local park with bad injuries. . .in a sense I agree, in another I don't. But a gull with a broken wing released by a beach is either going to survive or not. Like Christine said, it can take it's chances. if it doesn't make it, it becomes dinner for someone else. . .

Originally Posted by KnockerNorton

If you transport it, then you have put it in captivity (eg a box, and a car). So tha law applies again. Unless you wish to shoo it all the way there?

Still don't buy this . .

[KnockerNorton]

Well that law is almost identical to the one used in Britain, which applies to banders when confronted with an injured bird. It is illegal to release it, as it is abandonment. It is also the same law applied to rehabbers, or anyone else, who abandons a suffering animal. If it is on your premises, especially indoors, and you recognise that it is injured, but do nothing and 'abandon' it to its fate, then the law applies.

Seeing as the bird is not on the ground storey, then it is effectively trapped (unless it can use an elevator? or a firedoor and a set of stairs?), ergo it is captive.

[ausmar]

I agree with KN ( read the posts before they were deleted)! Sure its hard - fortunatly i haven't come into a situation like this before yet - but if and when i do it will probably me best to kill it there and then instead of causing it even more stress by taking it to the vet for him to euthanise it.
The most likely predators that will take the gull if left alive will be cats or dogs.
Wavering, if u're really close to a vet take there, if not follow KN's advice... its d best u can do 4 it...