[nepdk]

Could anybody give me advises? Have strongly considered buying a Leica Tel. APO 77 but after reading the results of the latest tests from Norway, maybe I should consider the Opticron ES100 instead?? I want to use the scope for digiscoping and, of cause, birdviewing in general. Have any of you honored members compared the performance of these two scopes for digiscoping?

I want at use a Nikon Coolpix 4500 - can you advise me which oculars to choose (a widefield or zoom ocular) and which adaptor (if not free-hand).

Thanks in advance and thanks for a very usefull and interesting forum!

Niels Erik Petersen
Denmark

[Grousemore]

Hi Niels and a warm welcome to Bird Forum from the Moderators and Admin.

You've come to the right place for advice and I'm sure you'll get plenty!

It would be interesting to know more about the latest tests from Norway to which you refer.

[Andy Bright]

Hi Niels, welcome to birdforum.net, we hope you enjoy yourself here.
I haven't seen the Opticron 100 but it's obviously been discussed by people.....a 100mm objective lens is always going to interest digiscopers, but 100mm doesn't always mean brilliant performance (the 100mm Optolyth?). You can't argue with the digiscoped results produced by the Leica APO77 (though it's odds-on that they will be bringing out a new 80mm'ish scope soon).
Regards,
Andy

[iporali]

Originally Posted by nepdk

Could anybody give me advises? Have strongly considered buying a Leica Tel. APO 77 but after reading the results of the latest tests from Norway, maybe I should consider the Opticron ES100 instead?? I want to use the scope for digiscoping and, of cause, birdviewing in general. Have any of you honored members compared the performance of these two scopes for digiscoping?

Hi Niels Erik,

A very good alternative is a second hand Swarovski AT80HD with either zoom or 32xWA. The resolutions are comparable and eventually it is up to you if you prefer the wide field of view or variable magnification - you can buy the other first and add another later (both are useful). Lots of accessories to this setup are available. I warmly recommend using an adapter - I like Spidertech but some less expensive models seem to work as well. A mechanical cable switch (that remote control thing... not Nikons own) is also very useful.

I have just praised Leica APO for its excellent colour correction - it really is a great scope for CA-sensitive (CA=chromatic aberration), but I would say that for digiscoping Swaro 20-60x zoom is slightly sharper at the extremes. Someone may disagree...
- No experience what so ever on Opticrons.

Good luck,

Ilkka

[nepdk]

Thanks for the warm welcomes and highly relevant advises. I have considered the Swarovsky 80HD's though I find them too expensive. I would assume that it would a little hard to find a used one, but may be wrong.
Concerning "the test from Norway" I found it here: http://www.kikkertspesialisten.no/pdf/testtele.pdf. Unfortunately for some users of this forum it's in --- Norwegian (a very beautifull language, but may be slightly hard to read for non-Scandinaves :-))

In short they test a large number of scopes "now and then", latest december 2003. They gives points from 1 (bad) to 12 (excellent) for a number of characteristics. Finally, they have ranked the scopes on the basis of resolution and contrast. There also are a number of "comments" to each scope. On this ranking list, the 10 first scopes are:
1) Tele Vue 85
2) Tele Vue 76
3) Questar Field Model 3.5''
4) Opticron ES 100 GA/45 degrees
5) Swarovski ATS 80 HD (45 degrees) and STS 80 HD
6) Leica Apo-Televid 77 (angeled and straight)
7) Swarovski ATS 65 HD (45 degrees) and STS 65 HD
8) Leica Apo-Televied 62 straight and angeled
9) Kowa TS-663 ED (45 degrees) and TS-664 ED
10) Carl Zeiss Diascope 85T FL (45 degrees)
... and so on until no 33.

"Kikkertspecialisten" emphasis that one should evaluate the testresults on the basis of one ones needs as other parameters than resolution and contrast might be even more important for one or anothers purposes. Anyway, I was surprised finding the opticron ES 100 ranked above the Swarovski and Leica concerning resolution and contrast. Is'nt that very important parameters for digiscoping?

(If anybody would like a few words from the test translated from Norwegian to english, send me an e-mail and I'll translate it to "Denglish" (=danish-english :-))

Thanks again for your answers - I'll study them during the next days and see if I dare making a decision.

Niels

[scampo]

The Opticron ES100 is rather long and more than usually heavy (far heavier than their excellent ES80), as, of course is the Leica when compared to newer designs such as the new Nikon and Zeiss scopes. Apart from that I'm sure they're both up there at the top with other scopes - I would also consider the Zeiss 85T*, new Nikon ED82 and Swarovski 80ED, of course.

[stevo]

I agree with Scampo,dont rule out the Opticron ES80 scope for the money it`s an excellent scope.A few members including myself use this scope for digiscoping & it gives very nice results.
Regards Steve.

[iporali]

Originally Posted by nepdk

... I have considered the Swarovsky 80HD's though I find them too expensive. I would assume that it would a little hard to find a used one, but may be wrong.
...
Thanks again for your answers - I'll study them during the next days and see if I dare making a decision.

Niels

Just to make sure - I meant the "old" AT-80HD and not that considerably more expensive ATS-80HD, which was in the test you showed. I thought there might be some used AT-scopes available as the "money-no-issue" -guys upgrade their kits

Ilkka

[scampo]

"Money no issue"? Hmm. It's my view that once you decide to spend >£500-00 (>Euro 700) you might as well bite the bullet and go for broke! But you might, like me, still consider the Swaro 80 to be too far over the sensible top and the differences - if they exist - between it and, say, the Nikon ED82 or Leica Apo insufficient to justify even at this silly level!

But the Opticron ES80 can be had for ~£500, so there is always this canny option!

[scampo]

Originally Posted by stevo

I agree with Scampo,dont rule out the Opticron ES80 scope for the money it`s an excellent scope.A few members including myself use this scope for digiscoping & it gives very nice results.
Regards Steve.

I reckon Opticron are not telling a fib when they say it is the most popular scope sold today in the UK. I see a lot of them around!

[iporali]

Originally Posted by scampo

"Money no issue"? Hmm. It's my view that once you decide to spend >£500-00 (>Euro 700) you might as well bite the bullet and go for broke!

True Steve - if you buy a new one or make a major upgrade! I meant those who upgrade a lightly used AT to ATS... freeing a great scope for someone lucky - absolutely nothing wrong with that either!

Ilkka

[scampo]

I suppose there are more moral uses for the money, but, heh! let's live a little! To quote the Bard:

"Oh, what a bitter thing it is to look into happiness through another man's scope."

[Andy Bright]

Originally Posted by iporali

Just to make sure - I meant the "old" AT-80HD and not that considerably more expensive ATS-80HD, which was in the test you showed. I thought there might be some used AT-scopes available as the "money-no-issue" -guys upgrade their kits

Ilkka

Does anyone know of a birder who has upgraded from AT/ST80HD to ATS/STS?....I know a large number of birders/digiscopers with the AT/ST80HD (and many have fat wallets!) but don't know any who have 'upgraded'. May be they're all big strong guys (and women) who don't lose sleep over the fact that the old scope is a bit heavy.

[normjackson]

I guess word got round pretty quickly that the optics in the new model weren't markedly better, if at all. Felt sure it was on BirdForum I read about one member mentioning that he'd got a good deal on a secondhand A/ST HD from a dealer which had taken it in part exchange on an A/STS HD model. An "exception which proves the rule" scenario (and why I remembered the story) : the previous owner was a ninety year old fella. Good on 'im.

[dogfish]

The Finnish birding magazine Alula reviewed the new Swarovski 80mm scope and concluded that it had only slightly better brightness and resolution than the old model. They also found eye placement more critical with the zoom eyepiece and found it harder to aim with. Their conclusion was that it was probably not worth upgrading from the old model.

But there were some good points about the new scope too.....

I too would like to hear from any birders who have upgraded, as I have the old-model scope.

PS I think Swarovski should come up with some real names for its scopes rather than confusing letters and numbers.

[dogfish]

A correction to my previous post: Alula said the new Swarovski 80mm has slightly better brightness and contrast than the old model, not resolution. Resolution was judged to be the same.

[scampo]

"PS I think Swarovski should come up with some real names for its scopes rather than confusing letters and numbers - dogfish"

At the price it is, you'd think they'd send the vicar to christen it, too!

[Grousemore]

Originally Posted by scampo

At the price it is, you'd think they'd send a vicar to christen it, too!

Would then test its waterproof claims at the same time!

[IanF]

A little late on joining this thread but for what it's worth, I'd still recommend the Kowa 823/4 M.

I've just sold my Kowa 823 and bought the Swaro ATS 80 HD. Really it isn't that much of an improvement over the Kowa. The Swaro is better in low light and extreme ie 60x zoom for photos, else the Kowa gives it very good competiton.

[scampo]

That's interesting to read, Ian. My son's Swaro AT65ED vs. my Nikon leads me to the same conclusion.

Swaro / Zeiss / Kowa / Leica / Nikon...

We're all lucky to be able to choose!

[snowyowl]

Originally Posted by scampo

That';s interesting to read, Ian. My son's Swar 65ED vs. my Nikon leads me to the same conclusion.

Swaro / Zeiss / Kowa / Leica / Nikon...

We're all lucky to be able to choose!

I just bought a Leica Televid 77. I started out to buy the B&L Elite but looked at all the ratings and decided to stretch my budget to the limit and buy the Nikon but at the very last minute was warned that the Nikon has poor eye relief for people with glasses (includes me). I stretched the budget to absolute breaking point and bought the Leica. This was all by mail order, unfortunately, since there's nowhere close to buy high end scopes. I'm happy with the Leica.

[scampo]

I don't think that you were advised accurately concerning wearing specs with the Nikon - if you mean the new version MCII. I have the ED82 with this zoom and when testing before I bought against other top makes, I was impressed to find that I could easily see the full fov while wearing specs - but only at lower magnification ranges. I find exactly the same with Leica and Swaro despite their having an apparently slightly longer quoted eye relief.

You won't be disappointed with your Leica, though, it's a fine scope.

[snowyowl]

Originally Posted by scampo

I don't think that you were advised accurately concerning wearing specs with the Nikon - if you mean the new version MCII. I have the ED82 with this zoom and when testing before I bought against other top makes, I was impressed to find that I could easily see the full fov while wearing specs - but only at lower magnification ranges. I find exactly the same with Leica and Swaro despite their having an apparently slightly longer quoted eye relief.

You won't be disappointed with your Leica, though, it's a fine scope.

Obviously that's the problem with long distance shopping, you can't try it for yourself. In this instance both one of the rating charts and someone who had tried the Nikon said the same thing. Too bad, I may have spent more than I needed to. Oh well, no sense in regreting, water under the bridge now. I'll just enjoy what I bought.

[scampo]

No matter - you have a fine scope (that is the same price as the Nikon over here).

Eye relief is an interesting aspect of scopes and binos, though - as you can see from my own experiences. Optics manufacturers are keen to quote their "long eye relief" but this rarely equates with ease of use in my experience. It seems more to depend upon what kind of eye problem you have as well as the design of your glasses.

As is always being said, try before you buy is the best policy - even if it's a friend's scope (if you are not close to an optics' supplier).

[snowyowl]

Originally Posted by scampo

As is always being said, try before you buy is the best policy - even if it's a friend's scope (if you are not close to an optics' supplier).

I know just about all of the serious birders here and I can say are very few birders here with high-end scopes. Those that are here seem to be exclusively B&L Elites, probably a price thing. I see the occasional tourist with other brands but that's about it. Most birders that I know are using scopes in the $300-$500 range (Canadian dollars).