[Steve C]

A few days back, there was some discussion of a new make and model of binocular that Cameraland NY is actively considering selling. The discussions developed at the 24 Hour Campfire and eventually migrated here. I have had a test sample from the dealer in hand for a couple of days. So here is a post of my impressions.

First the specifications;

Power: 8X or 10x
• Objective Lens Diameter: 42mm
• Type of Prism: BAK4
• Roof Prism Coating: Silver and phase coated
• Number of Lens: 8 elements in 6 groups
• Body Construction: Magnesium Alloy
• Objective Glass: Extra Low Dispersion (ED)
• Lens Coating: full broadband multicoatings
• Water, dust, and oil repellent coatings
• Focus System: Internal center focusing
• Exit Pupil Diameter: 5.2mm/4.2mm
• Eye Relief: 17.2mm
• Field of View: 8x=7.5° - 393 ft. @ 1000 yds.
• 10x=6.3 – 330 ft. @ 1000 yds
• Minimum Focusing Distance: 5’/1.5M
• Diopter System: Right eyepiece - ±3
• Waterproof and Weatherproof: Nitrogen filled fog proof
• Weight: 27.48 oz. w/o strap or lens covers.

For the record I do not know where this binocular is made or just who makes it. This is the only binocular I have seen in quite some time that comes in a leather-looking velvet lined-looking hard case. The case is bigger than needed by a tad, so the binocular is quite easy to get into and out of the case. The eyecups do need to be all the way down for the case to close. The eyecups have two stops, at halfway out and fully out. There is a reasonable firm detent at each stop and side play in the eyepiece at each stop is minimal. The Diopter is a standard right eye, non-locking ring style. The movement is stiff without being difficult and will likely show little tendency to wander out of adjustment. Minimum IPD seems to be 56mm.

The focus knob is large and well placed above the upper bridge. This glass seems to have less space between the hinges than I seem to recall in either a Swarovski EL or Vortex Viper. I remember those as being three finger openings, this one has a two finger space. It looks quite a lot like the Bushnell Infinity and I would not be surprised that they share the same housing. The optics, however, are quite different.

There are two aspects of this glass I do not like. First the focus wheel operates through a frustrating 2 ½ turns. I am not sure if this is intended to be a dual system focus that is supposed to operate differently at near or far distance. What it is, is too slow. It turns smoothly with the just the right amount of effort. It just turns too slow. I suspect a fix is in order here if this is to become popular. It may make a difference to some, but this one focuses clockwise to infinity.

The second thing I do not like may be in fact related to the first. This binocular has a narrower depth of focus than I like. This may not be quite the proper use of the terms from a optical sense, but think of it like this; within the range of the depth of the field that is reasonably in focus, about half of that at best is a sweet spot of fine focus. This is better in that regard than my Nikon Monarch, but both are too “focus fiddly” for my liking. The focus wheel is then a requirement rather than an option. To me the hallmark of a really good binocular is that is has a depth of focus nearly equal to the depth of field. The whole image is a right-there-right-now sort of an affair. Once focus is reached, the wheel needs to be used little save for more precise identifications as in “just what is that little gray bird behind those twigs?”. My Vortex Viper is far better than the Mystery Glass in this regard. The extremely slow focus may be a primary cause of that problem.

However, when this mystery glass is in its zone, it has superb image quality. In terms of resolution it will easily play in the +$1.000 US class. The image is bright, sharp and gives a nice you just walked up 8x closer to something sort of view. Color representation is quite good. CA and fringing to my eyes is just not there. This is perhaps a contribution of the ED glass. This gives very good views of Jupiter and its moons. Jupiter is presented as a sharp, distinct blue sphere. There is no halo or flare around the edges. The moons appear as sharp and distinct pinpoints. Stars seem to resolve as pinpoints across the vast majority of the field. There, my astronomy is just about done.

The 393’ FOV is nice for this size of binocular. 400’ is not approached before you get to the Vortex Razor and Meopta Meostar in price level.
The glass is apparently well made and nicely balanced. It will get to a personal level of acceptance of the feel for the open bridge design s to whether or not you like the ergonomics. Fix the focus and give it a Viper equal depth of field, and I’m in the market to try one.

I suspect that this is an attempt to bump up the performance of a level of mid-price glass rather than to pose direct lower price competition to more expensive class glass.

Note: I edited the error in the diopter location. It is a right eye ring.

[NWBirder]

Originally Posted by Steve C

• Diopter System: Left eyepiece - ±3

There are two aspects of this glass I do not like. First the focus wheel operates through a frustrating 2 ½ turns. I am not sure if this is intended to be a dual system focus that is supposed to operate differently at near or far distance. What it is, is too slow. It turns smoothly with the just the right amount of effort. It just turns too slow. I suspect a fix is in order here if this is to become popular. It may make a difference to some, but this one focuses clockwise to infinity.

Thanks for the great, detailed review. Without being as lucky as Steve to see this binocular in person, I'd like to point out few things: (1) for 8x binoculars, +/-3 dioptic adjustment seems to be too small. I am wondering how much adjustment is available for 10x format. (2) I agree with Steve, this binocular seems to be positioned as lower/mid priced offering since it has only 8 elements. I believe Vortex Viper has 5 elements for eyepieces alone. Adding focusing/objective lenses, Viper should have more glasses than this; (3) I am afraid the relatively wide FOV may come with not so-sharp edge view. Not sure if you get a chance to check the edge-to-edge sharpness. If that one checks out ok, I would definitely try to get a copy for my next upgrade once it becomes available.

On the other hand, I am a big fan of smooth fine focusing with 2 more full turns on focusing wheel. I mainly use binoculars to observe birds within 50 yards distance, a fine tuning focusing wheel is much more desirable (in MHO). But if you keep switching from infinity to close focus, it might be inconvenient.

Any way, thanks for the great write up. Cannot wait to see the brand and price ( I was hoping for less than $300 so I won't get in trouble with the boss)

[Steve C]

Actually the image is very sharp even to the edges of the field. The image also appears quite flat to me. When this binocular is in sharp focus on a object, there is very little to find objection with. If the depth of focus was better, I could live with the slow wheel. It also focuses opposite to the other binoculars I have.

Look for a $500 tag. I have no idea if input from Cameraland NY will have any effect. If it does there may be some degree of promise with the new venture.

[OwenM]

Does it look black or gray? Hard to tell from the pics, while it's described as gray.
Not sure what the great mystery is, since a direct link was already posted to this bino, and some other dealers are already stocking it.

[Steve C]

Owen,
Mine is what I would describe as a very nearly black, charcoal gray. And you're right, shouldn't be a mystery. The "mystery" aspect came from Cameraland NY's desire to attempt to get a reasonably unbiased cross section of opinion about the optics of the glass and try to stay away from the political, cultural, price range, this manufacturer vs that one sort of wild speculation that people get into. Seems to me valid. It was like a bunch of little kids waiting for christmas wanting to know what their present was going to be in advance over at the campfire. That in itself was interesting. Human nature is speculative I guess, so the unbiased test may well be an impossible dream.

As far as I know this is the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX. Why they didn't change the Infinity Elite part of the name I don't know. People googling for this without using the ELX in the search parameters will confuse themselves. However, as you point out there is some discrepancy in the color of the Prostar glass and this one. This guy also has brass colored metal trim rather than the silvery metal shown on the Prostar. Does that mean there are two different outfits marketing the same glass? Or almost the same glass? Beats me. When I see the name on this will I have wished I kept quiet about the Prostar? It is what it is and I guess we'll all find out soon enough. Heck, call Cameraland NY, maybe they'll sell and tell.

[henry link]

[quote=NWBirder;1275180] I agree with Steve, this binocular seems to be positioned as lower/mid priced offering since it has only 8 elements. I believe Vortex Viper has 5 elements for eyepieces alone. Adding focusing/objective lenses, Viper should have more glasses than this[/QUOTE

Current Swarovski EL has a total of 7 elements in 5 groups.

[Steve C]

Actually the specs I posted contain an error. The diopter is on the right eyepiece, not the left. The 3 diopter range is correct

[Tero]

5 elements, 7 elements, where will it stop? When you drop the binoculars, you will have more elements rattling around in there. Let's go back to the pirate movie folding spyglass, one lens in front, one in back.

[FrankD]

Instead of starting a new thread I thought it better to add to this one. My sample of the mystery glass finally reached my hands today. Long story about signature required and DHL.

To start off I find my opinions of the optical qualities of this glass to mirror Steve's to an extent. I am having a hard time with the depth of focus that he mentions. The focus speed is slower than most bins today but I did not find it excessively troublesome. I thought the slower speed provided more of a sense of control over precision focusing. I believe this to be one of those issues where it is going to come down to personal taste.

The image this bin provides really is its strongpoint. I sat outside for about two hours earlier this evening comparing it with the Swaro EL 8.5x42, EL 8x32 and Zeiss FL 7x42. This binocular's optical performance is very, very close to this group of binoculars in several areas. Brightness is very good. I would put it as right at the same level as the larger Swaro EL and only slightly less than that of the FL (obviously taking into consideration the larger exit pupil of the FL). Apparent sharpness is very good if not excellent. The image has that look that the FL and Vortex Razor provide...very fine details are easy to pick out. Color fringing is very well controlled in this binocular. It most certainly gives you that window glass effect because of the low CA and because of the wide field of view.

The field of view is extremely flat with no field curvature immediately noticeable in the image. Color is slightly more neutral than the larger EL but not as much so as the FL.

Nitpicks:

I have three nitpicks about this binocular.

One, though I do not have a problem with the focus speed or tension my model seems to have a bit of play in the focusing mechanism. Some may refer to it as backlash. The tension is similar to that of the Pentax SP but that little bit of play frustrated me a little. I was more accustomed to the control of the FL and EL which are extremely precise.

Two, the eyecup shape is not entirely to my liking. They seem to have a bit of an edge to them which not only cause slight discomfort but also seem to give me a bit of a problem getting comfortable with the image. When I hold this binocular a bit away from my face the image issue disappears entirely. If the eyecup edges were contoured a bit (similar to the FL or EL) then it would be much more comfortable.

Three, the sweet spot. Looking at objects extremely close (in this case the face of my two boys) the sweet spot appears very wide, encompassing a good 80% of the field of view. However when focusing the center of the image on a distant tree (fine details of branches outlined against the white sky) and moving that tree up and down in the field of view revealed that there is a very gradual degradation of the image after one reaches the middle third of the field of view. The outer third shows noticeable distortion in much the same way that the FL does. The image cannot be refocused around the edge so it is not field curvature. Speaking of which, that is what this binocular's sweet spot and level of distortion remind me... the FL.

I might also mention what Steve said about the open hinge design. The distance between hinges is shorter than that of the EL or Razor.....plus you don't have the thumb or other finger indents to help the bin feel lighter and narrower than it actually is.

In summarizing this binocular puts together a potent optical package. It most certainly is in the performance level of the Vortex Razor and Meopta Meostar. One could argue that it is the most serious competitor to the big name class in some time...at least from an optical standpoint. The body style is obviously a knock-off on the EL but the optics are basically FL in nature with a slightly dimmer image because of the Schmidt Pechan prisms.

Steve mentioned the price point this bin is selling at and its real name. If this is true and I have no reason to believe that it won't sell at the same price most places then this bin has shifted the performance versus price standard quite a bit. There is no bin at the $500 price point that will compete with it optically. Though others consider the Audubon 8.5x44 a poor man's EL I think I am going to start referring to this bin as just that. High end optics in a much less refined body.

[Tero]

Frank, did you ever have the Audubon? How is the brightness?

Two, the eyecup shape is not entirely to my liking. They seem to have a bit of an edge to them which not only cause slight discomfort but also seem to give me a bit of a problem getting comfortable with the image.

Must have copied Zeiss Conquest.

[FrankD]

Originally Posted by Tero

Frank, did you ever have the Audubon? How is the brightness?



Must have copied Zeiss Conquest.

Tero,

No, I have never owned the Audubon. I was referring to several comments I had read on the forum here and on BVD. I know several folks here are quite fond of it. I wish I could comment further.

And, FWIW, I had the 8x40 Conquest ABK. Though the eyecups don't have much cushion they were more contoured than the "mystery bin". There is plenty of rubber cushion with this bin. It is more of the shape of the edge that rubs me the wrong way (pun intended).

[Tero]

You know the old review, it speaks highly of sharpness, but the brightness may not be spectacular
http://www.betterviewdesired.com/Swi...bon-8.5x44.php

Would you spend 500 on a no name or 350 on a Swift or 500 on a Viper? provided you had 500 and could only buy one, as your only binocular.

[Steve C]

Tero,

For what this is worth, I have a Viper. A brief comparison would be the FOV is much better with this Prostar. So is the pure resolution and image. The Viper has a much deeper depth of focus than this Prostar. If that was the same in the Viper and Prostar, I'd order a Prostar and never look back.

As to the longevity and future of a new company, well my crystal ball has insufficecnt depth of focus for me to comment. Swift has been sitting in sort of a dead spot for awhile, so who knows about their future either. In the name of competition I wish them both luck.

[Tero]

I have been rotating toward a pretty standard 8x, and the Viper seems to be nothing weird, but brighter and sharper than the average 300-500 model. I guess that is what I expect from an 8x. Especially the brightness. I did run across a few models with wide fov in the mid price, but assumed they would not be as bright.

The mystery binocular scares me a bit with possible flaws, warranty issues etc. I think we will find them in camera stores mostly.

[Steve C]

Well the Viper is a class act in its price range too. It is certainly a step up from the Monarch, for example. But anything at that price level has possibility for flaws.

[Tero]

I have never had to return a new pair. I had repairs on one porro. Have tried Bushnell, Zeiss, Eagle Optics, Nikon, Pentax and had a few pair of Vortex to check out for a week so far. None of them had alignment problems and serious problems out of the box. Certainly there are people searching the few that somehow ended up way better than the average of a particular model. Bu I got what I expected.

[NWBirder]

I think my brain was just fried. Quick silly question, is Prostar the "mystery" binoculars' brand? or I am mixing things up in a terribly wrong way?

[henry link]

"Prostar" is the name of a Nikon 7x50 binocular. The mystery binoculars are Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED. I think Steve C accidently referred to them as "Prostars" in one of his posts.

I just googled "promaster binoculars" and found them with no trouble. Camcor is quite close to me. Maybe I'll have a look

[Steve C]

NWBirder,

Henry Link is precisely correct. I flubed up back in post #5.

[FrankD]

Would you spend 500 on a no name or 350 on a Swift or 500 on a Viper? provided you had 500 and could only buy one, as your only binocular.
__________________

Good point Tero. I cannot argue with your logic. However, if I had only $500 to spend and I wanted a waterproof roof prism binocular then I would most certainly be spending it on the Promaster. It is optically better in several areas than the Vortex Viper and certainly better optically than the Pentax SP. Both of which were bins I have been recommending in the $500 and under price category

Even if you were to stretch that price range to include the Meopta Meostar and the Vortex Razor I think it would be a tough call. It is going to come down to individual optical and handling preferences rather than some major difference optically. I will say it again. At the $500 price point there is no bin that competes with this optically.

[NWBirder]

Henry/Steve, thanks for the clarifying this.

[NWBirder]

Frank, got a quick question for you. I looked through Swarovski's EL and SLC and noticed their prisms seem to be different from other roof prisms. Is it truly the case?

[FrankD]

NW,

Henry would be the one to accurately answer that type of question. I would have a hard time believing that Swarovski would use an entirely conventional prism design.

..and, FWIW, I have decided to sell both of my ELs and the SLC. I just cannot justify the cost when comparing the optical performance of them and the Promaster. (Watch Ebay tomorrow night if you do not believe me ) Yes, the Promaster is that good. I plan on ordering an 8x42 from Doug come Tuesday morning.

...I would love to see them come out with an 8x32 version as well.

Now, I look forward to seeing if Henry made the trip to Camcor. If they had one in stock I would love to hear his impressions of them optically.

[OwenM]

Did I read that right? Two-and-a-half turns?
From what I'm reading, I'd buy the 8x42 in a heartbeat, but depth of field and relatively fast focus would be a must in a general purpose binocular. If they get that fixed, I'll buy one.

Selling those new ELs, Frank...dang. Nothing is ever going to justify their price from a practical perspective, but that's still my dream binocular!

[Kevin Purcell]

Apologies this is a bit rambling ...

Originally Posted by FrankD

[...] ..and, FWIW, I have decided to sell both of my ELs and the SLC. I just cannot justify the cost when comparing the optical performance of them and the Promaster. (Watch Ebay tomorrow night if you do not believe me ) Yes, the Promaster is that good. I plan on ordering an 8x42 from Doug come Tuesday morning.

...I would love to see them come out with an 8x32 version as well.

Now, I look forward to seeing if Henry made the trip to Camcor. If they had one in stock I would love to hear his impressions of them optically.

Wow, that's a commitment, Frank!

The only doubts I have are service/warranty (though Doug is said to stand behind his bins).

http://promaster.com/products/produc...2_C_Binoculars

I see this on the Promaster bins:

No Fault Lifetime Warranty: Whether you run over them or drop them from an airplane, gather the pieces along with your original sales receipt and return everything to PROMASTER (along with a small processing fee) and they will replace your binoculars.

So that seems reasonable so long as their customer service works.

Has Doug set a price yet?

I second (and Tero will third, I'm sure) the 8x32 comment. I'd love to see a similar set in 8x32. I doubt they need ED for these either (after all the Zeiss Conquest doesn't use ED or FL or similar "fancy" glass for the 300mm class product.

But a bit of searching shows they already have something in the right ballpark. Currently they make the ProMaster Infinity Elite 8 x 32 (Promaster #6944) that retails for $149 (or $159 at Wolfes).

http://promaster.com/products/produc...D&product=6944

Power: 8X
Objective Lens Diameter: 32mm
Type of Prism: BAK4 Roof
Prism Coating: Silver and phase coated
Number of Lens: 8 elements in 6 groups
Lens Coating: TRANSBRIGHT™ and full broadband multicoatings
Focus System: Internal center focusing
Exit Pupil Diameter: 4.1mm
Eye Relief: 14.7mm
Field of View: 8.13° - 426 ft. @ 1000 yds.
Minimum Focusing Distance: 6.56’/2M
Diopter System: Left eyepiece -±4
Waterproof: 1.5m for 3 minutes
Weatherproof: Nitrogen filled fog proof
Weight: 18.6 oz.

The blurb also mentioned REPELLAMAX™ element repellent on the external optics. So that's all the same coatings as the top end bin. I wonder how the quality is?

They used to(?) make Promaster Infinity 7x32 Binocular (Promaster #8654). Of course this begs the question has anyone tried the Promaster Infinity 7x32 Binocular. The specs don't look that bad. It's x7 for a start!

http://wolfes.com/eshop/cart.php?tar...ategory_id=340

# Field of View - 389' @ 1000 Yards
# Eye Relief - 17mm
# Prism - Silver Coated BAK-4 Porro
# Minimum Focus Distance - 9.8'
# Waterproof, Nitrogen filled
# Includes deluxe case

Silver Coated prisms too ... that's interesting. But there' is no mention of phase coating but other ads mention "Fully Broadband Multicoated". And it's only $99. So it's either it's a steal or it's another fully multicoated non-PC bin.

I see Tero commented on Promaster back in 2004. I wonder which bin he tried?

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=27028

Second opinion: binoculars, though they may be coated, are below Nikon Sporter level.

Of course that was 4 years ago for an unspecified model. How things change. Perhaps it's time to revisit their optics.

I note here

http://promaster.com/products/produc...D&product=1180

They are making an ED scope too: the "PROMASTER INFINITY ELX 65MM ED"