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Old Monday 6th October 2008, 15:40   #26
Tero
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Bob, try the Swift 7x36? I know the fov could be bigger, but...
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Old Monday 6th October 2008, 20:23   #27
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Yes Tero,
Based on the reports we have here from the people who use it, it looks like it is a very good binocular. I've never tried one, but it's FOV is adequate as far as I am concerned. I would probably buy the 8.5 x 44 HHS over it though because I did try one along with of a Swaro 8.5 x 42 at the same time and I liked it's performance and ergonomics and especially it's price.
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Old Monday 6th October 2008, 21:18   #28
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Mr Lingyun
Thank you for taking the time to post on this site. As you can tell, there is a lot of optical expertice by real users here. I'm not one of those experts, but I think I would speak for a lot of people here and on other optics forums, in that a lot of us would buy a high quality 7x32 or 7x36 binocular. I wonder why the big three all make an 8x32 and a 7x42 but no 7x32. That seems backwards to me.

To answer your question more directly about 32 or 36, I would personally prefer a 32 size bin to go along with my 8x42 Ultravid. I think the people who frequent these boards are inclined to own more than one general use binocular. I would use the 8x42 around the house, on short walks and in places I can drive to. I would like a compact and light (around 20oz) binocular for longer hikes and mountain trips.

Thanks, John
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Old Monday 6th October 2008, 23:31   #29
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Those are some excellent points Bob and about some very specific models and configurations. Well said. I would agree that a mid-priced 7x42 would probably be very well received. Again, if they just took the 8x42 design that they are already utilizing and made the necessary design changes to make it a 7x42 (with an accompanying larger field of view, equal or better eye relief and naturally a better depth of field) then it would be hard not to recommend to just about anyone look for a mid-priced binocular with high end performance.
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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 02:01   #30
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Originally Posted by Huang_Lingyun View Post
11. As for the wide field of view, FrankD described very clear. At the same time, FrankD indicate that the stray light control is not perfect. It is difficult to control the stray light to a high level under that wide field of view, but we need to apply new techniques to improve this phenomenon. Thank you very much again.
I've been noticing this in all my wide (8 degree) roofs, and to a lesser extend in the narrow FOV roofs, and was wondering if it was a general phenomenon.

Could you say something about the mechanism that's causing the stray light. Where is the light coming from (outside the field I presume) and why does it end up as a ring in the image? Obviously there's some path through the bin for stray light that symmetric around the axis of a barrel.

Perhaps this explains Pentax's design style that leans to a narrower FOV than most.

Perhaps I shall have to trade my desire for a FOV "turned up to 11" with my desire to deal with stray light (which is the biggest issue I have with roofs).

Any insights are welcome!
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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 02:11   #31
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for the porro fans? One more 7x..though individual focus
http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=4569
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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 04:15   #32
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Any insights are welcome!
The solution to this problem, I've found, is to get top-end roofs. The Zeiss 7x42 and 8x32, the Leica 7x42 and 8x32, and Swarovski 8x32 and 7x42 all have fairly wide FOVs as roofs go, but they all control stray light very well and maintain excellent contrast in tricky lighting conditions.

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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 04:30   #33
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On the assumption that the Promaster ELX ED and the Hawke ED are slightly tweaked versions of the same model, I'm going to respond to Huang Linguan's request for what else we'd like to see.

My vote is for 7x36 in the smaller glass. Looking at the 7x36 Swift I have, it is apparrent that a 36mm objective can come in a truly compact frame size. I'd say my preference is 7x, and then 8x. I don't have much use for compact glass higer than 8x. However since we are wishing here, I'd vote for initial production runs of 6x, 7x, 8x and 9x. Concentrate on 8-9 degree angular fov. After the first production release we'd know if the apparent desire for a quality 7x glass is as real as people on BF seem to think it is. You might take a risk with the 9x because maybe Tero is the only potential customer. But I think that 9x would still be useful. You would still have a 4mm exit pupil. I think that the extra glass of the 36mm size would provide the engineers with a few more options than lesser amounts. However if you can make wider fov with 32mm designs, then the market would seem to me to indicate that you will sell more binoculars with as much fov as you can give them.

I for one would like to see optional, easily changed flared (angled) eyecups. I happen to like them and get a little weary of fashioning them from bicycle innertubes and O-rings. I prefer the Hawke case accessory kit.
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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 13:44   #34
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The reason that 9x would not sell is that many people cannot tell the difference between similar 8x and 9x. But with 10x you can impress a lot of people, especially the nonbirding kind. "Wow, these are stronger".
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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 22:56   #35
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As a matter of interest, guys, how bad is the "stray light" problem in the Hawke Frontier ED 8x43? Iīm gobsmacked by the specs of these bins (having checked them out and found a British distributor on Steve Cīs recommendation), and although Iīve never seen a pair, I trust your reviews and recommendations. I have a pair of EL 8x32, but reckoned Santa might bring me a pair of ED 8x42 (If you still Believe in him, heīll bring you anything....) Iīm seriously impressed by the wide FOV and 743gm weight of the Hawkes, and the less-than-sharp edge doesnīt really bother me...the new HD ELīs might be sharp "edge-to-edge", but if their FOV is only 7.6 degrees, thereīs less actual edge there. Also they weigh nearly 800gm, and will cost about six times (yes, thatīs six times) the Hawkes. So, as you say Stateside, itīs a "no-brainer"...but does that stray light issue make a big difference?

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Old Tuesday 7th October 2008, 23:11   #36
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Quote:
...FOV is only 7.6 degrees, thereīs less actual edge there.
That is how it goes. Binoculars are kind of like the dress that is too short. If you pull it down, it reveals too much on top. We just juggle our specs and requirements around, but we can't have it all.
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 00:17   #37
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Binoculars are kind of like the dress that is too short. If you pull it down, it reveals too much on top.
In dresses, I would consider this a distinct advantage. Isnīt it interesting, though, especially in light of the current collapse of "Western" capitalism, that Chinese manufacturers can produce these bins at the prices on offer? Meanwhile, Swarovski charges more in Europe for its products than it does in the U.S., because it realises that Americans arenīt prepared to pay what Euroeans do. The Hawke bins cost exactly the same in Europe as they do in the U.S. and in gratitude for that, Iīm prepared to switch when next I buy bins. Mind you, if the crash deepens, there wonīt be a foreign market for Chinese-made goods, as weīll all be unemployed and spending our days extending our Lists.
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 00:25   #38
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After the crash you can trade your binoculars to that hunter for a couple of rabbits.
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 00:44   #39
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I feel the need to comment on the issue of stray light with the Hawke EDs. I take a bit of pride in "calling it like I see it" regardless of how I personally feel about a product. I felt the need to comment about that bit of a stray light because I saw it in the image. However, as I said previously, I do not believe it takes away from the overall image quality of the bin...at least for my personal preference in optical quality. It would not deter me from purchasing a second pair of these bins or buying them again in the first place if I knew about it ahead of time. In my experience so far it simply is another aspect of the optical performance in much the same way that I see a little more color fringing in the Swarovski ELs or that bit of astigmatism around the outside edge of the Zeiss FLs. One just accepts it as a compromise in design and, I again feel the need to point out that we aren't talking about a $1500, $2000 or $2500 binocular but rather one that sells for under $500 and yet still delivers, incredibly, in optics and handling...again, in my opinion.

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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 03:39   #40
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If he's still out there, I have a question for Huan_Lingyun. It is this. What is the deal with the slow focus rate in these binoculars? On one hand it seems molasses slow and on the other it seems OK. Is there a variable rate focus design at work here or is it something else. If you can say, I for one would like to know.
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 09:47   #41
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In dresses, I would consider this a distinct advantage. Isnīt it interesting, though, especially in light of the current collapse of "Western" capitalism, that Chinese manufacturers can produce these bins at the prices on offer? .................................
Sancho,
It would be interesting to find out whether Chinese manufacturers could produce these binoculars at the same prices while paying wages equivalent to those paid by western capitalists to their employees.

I wonder what their profit margins are and where these "Eastern" capitalists invest these profits? In China or in the West?

Bob
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 14:48   #42
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Have been following along here (and developing quite an interest in these Hawkes):

The "stray light" issue (which Sancho referenced) is my biggest concern. Usually (it seems) if it is mentioned, then there is a problem. For me, it has been the bane of some models/brands - Minox and Docter come to mind. Of course, it always shows up at the worst possible times in the field (while hardly noticeable at all in the shop).

Frank, could you share more details on what stood out to you? What were the conditions in which you noticed it, etc? How much different is it from some other models?

APS
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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 16:12   #43
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The "stray light" issue (which Sancho referenced) is my biggest concern. Usually (it seems) if it is mentioned, then there is a problem. For me, it has been the bane of some models/brands - Minox and Docter come to mind. Of course, it always shows up at the worst possible times in the field (while hardly noticeable at all in the shop).
Couldn't have said it better myself. This is a point that deserves further description.

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Old Wednesday 8th October 2008, 18:11   #44
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Sancho,
It would be interesting to find out whether Chinese manufacturers could produce these binoculars at the same prices while paying wages equivalent to those paid by western capitalists to their employees.

I wonder what their profit margins are and where these "Eastern" capitalists invest these profits? In China or in the West?

Bob
A valid point, Bob....and yet our home-grown capitalists have reaped huge bonuses while intentionally bankrupting thousands of families by over-lending to them, and with it, sabotaged markets and sunk all our retirement funds, ensuring a dotage in poverty for us all and bringing about a worldwide disaster thatīs going to make binoculars pretty irrelevant. In a perfect world order, there would be plenty of affordable premium-bins for all..... In fairness, costs are cheaper in Asia to workers too....in 1988/ī89, I worked in China and lived the life of a king on a salary of 64 dollars a month. Admittedly I spent 1993/ī94 there too, and my salary rose to 200 dollars p.m. But a lot of what we buy nowadays in US/Europe is produced in "low-cost" economies where labour is cheap. I reckon China may have the last laugh, as we plunge into recession born of the greed of Bank Executives.....

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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 01:04   #45
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As I mentioned in my original review of the Frontier ED the stray light appears as a little ring of light just outside the fieldstop. I saw something similar to it in the pair of Bushnell Discoverer roofs that I sold to KP. The conditions I noted it in were full daylight from just about any angle so long as it is sunny out. This morning I tried to duplicate the effect just as the sun was rising. The sky was pink and the top of the nearby mountain was lit with sunlight though, somewhat surprisingly to me, the stray light was nowhere to be found in the view. I am guessing that because of the lower light levels it was not as readily apparent.

One thing to note, I do not see it, even in full daylight, if I go to look for it. My eyes have to be fixed on the image and then I notice it in the periphery of my vision. I wonder if it is somehow a reflection in the eyepiece or possibly the result of insufficient baffling somewhere in the design.

I take it this is what you folks were looking for?
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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 01:19   #46
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What would be a common model of binocular to see this stray light phenomenon?
some explanations here

I tried my porros and a light bulb in the kitchen. When I move away a few inches from the bulb, I can still see where it is. Note to self: avoid light bulbs when birding.
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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 01:47   #47
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What would be a common model of binocular to see this stray light phenomenon?
In my opinion, the major failing of less-than-the-best roofs is their poor handling of tricky light (strong direct or diffuse backlighting, glare from direct light hitting the objectives or oculars) and their often substandard contrast. Some examples I've much experience with include Nikon 8x25 Sportstar IV, Eagle Optics 8x32 Platinum Ranger, Browning 8x32, B&L 7x42 Discoverer, Bushnell 8x42 e2, but I dare say I've not seen a cheap or mid-priced roof that actually performed to my standards in this area.

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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 01:59   #48
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I've actually seen a different form of ring from (what I presume is stray light) in a few of the wide angle roofs I have including the Bushnell Discoverer 7x42 that I bought from Frank, perhaps the weakest thing I've seen in that bin. I've also seen it in the Diamondback 8x42 and the Promaster 7x32 (an older one, that demonstrates more forms of stray light problem than any other bin I have!).

Frank sees his ring outside the fieldstop. I see the ring in the field as a circular rings elevated brightness (which is probably also a reduction in contrast) at a width that varies from bin to bin. But say it's usually inside half the diameter of the field. This is different from "veiling glare" that usually gives a segment of a circle of reduced contrast (brightness) on the opposite side of the field from the off axis light source.

In the cases I've seen this effect it's been overcast with bright sky of half a hemisphere or so (i.e. a lot of off axis light, perhaps the toughest case for a bin next to being tens of degrees away from the sun).

It's very difficult to reproduce reliably. I saw it once with the Discoverers. I was also looking down at a reservoir at the time checking the bins for contrast and color against a few newly out of eclipse Mallard males with a mix of overcast with the sun peaking through (though I was in shadow from direct sun).

The one thing it seems to correlate with (though I've not done anything major about checking this) is the bins happen to be roofs with quite wide FOVs. That may just be selection bias (for the wide FOV) but I've not seen it happen in any of my porros except one (a Japanese OEMed 10x50 astro porro) when looking over an expanse of brightly lit concrete at a large darker target (shadowed trees).

It makes me wonder if its stray light coming up the tube and then perhaps illuminating edges of lens (not edge blackened) in the eyepiece. It's got to be something that gives this very circular symmetry.

I've seen a lesser version of this with other bins which makes it feel like the field is "lumpy" in some circularly symmetric way. Often clearer when you view a bright, uniform target (blue sky or cloudy sky).

There's one thing I have to be careful about. I use bins with eyeglasses and one has to be careful that the "stray light" is actually coming through the bin and not in the side of the eyeglasses and then bouncing off the edge of the final ocular lens or the metal support ring for the ocular. But I don't think this is the case for Frank.

I think eyeglass wearers may be more susceptible to several forms of stray light. Especially those where the light scatters outside the exit pupil. For a "normal" user the entrance pupil of the eye stops out this stray light. But with a piece of plastic (sometimes with a line that scatters a lot of light for bifocals wearers) I think we sometimes get a "second chance" at seeing stray light outside that exit pupil (from a reflection off the eyeball then back from the eyeglasses).

Eye placement to get the position of the exit pupil correct placed is also more difficult with eyeglasses again tending to let some of the "outside the exit pupil" stray light hit the edge of the entrance pupil of the eye. This contribute to what I called "fiddlyness" getting the position of the bins just right but with a 5 or 6mm exit pupil in afternoon light this really shouldn't be an issue.

So I'm not sure if I'm seeing the same thing as Frank is seeing.

Anyone else?
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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 02:49   #49
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The one thing it seems to correlate with (though I've not done anything major about checking this) is the bins happen to be roofs with quite wide FOVs.
I figured it would come around to that, somehow. I have never been bothered by it in 10x roofs with about 315ft fov.

But it may be seen in porros too, I should think.
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Old Thursday 9th October 2008, 03:09   #50
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Frank, Thanks for the info. (I should have re-read your review before making my inquiry.)

Kevin has I think touched on what I have seen before and am concerned about here - it is mostly "veiling flare". From general recollection, it seems to often accompany the "substandard contrast" (to which Alexis refers), at least in non-ideal light situations. If memory serves me well, the Conquests are guilty of both, as well as the symmetrical circle phenom you and Kevin seem to be describing. It does seem that bins which have a glare/flare/stray-light problem often have more than one of the manifestations. I've typically attributed it to coatings; however commentary here suggests that there are other major contributors.

Tero: Did you ever see any of these phenom in the Conquests? If not, I doubt any of this makes any sense.

So, concerning the Hawkes, Franks testimony is not so incriminating after all. But, I'm still wondering about the potentially related contrast. As Alexis points out in post #32, the hallmark of top shelf roofs is that "they all control stray light very well and maintain excellent contrast in tricky lighting conditions" (Leica is well known for this). I suspect that if the Hawke can pass this test, the bin market may get very interesting soon.

Thanks, APS
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