[teamgs]

Greetings from a long absent birder. (About 20 years or so...) I have remained a frequent outdoor visitor, and now with my two little girls getting to the age where they are interested in birds, trees, etc., I have dusted off my field guides, and natural history books (see Mom, my college science degree really will come in handy! ) and am ready to start slowly back into the hobby.
I couldn't afford nice glass when I was "into" the hobby back in the day, and my cheap, heavy, old 10x50 zoom bins are now definitely relegated to "porch view" status at our mountain condo. My only other bins are some 12x24 Pentax UCF's which are nice for backpacking, tossing in the car, or for my girls to play with, but not much else.
Sooo...here I sit, with a minor headache from two days of research on this site and too many others to count. (I tend to overanalyse, to the point of "Paralysis by analysis." )
My wants/needs:

1. 8x42 or similar. Don't really see the need for greater, as my wife will be using them as well, and she has an easier time locating things with less magnification.

2. Waterproof to 100m really isn't necessary. I don't anticipate much heavy activity in inclement weather, though occasional trips to the coast may mean some mist, etc. My bigger concern would be fogging, and I am not sure if gas purged optics are really a necessity.

3. At this time, I really don't see myself out every weekend, only a few times a month at most with my girls. Therefore, I can't see spending top $$ for alpha bins. I would like to keep the cost to $500 or less. (Preferably $200-$400)

4. I have no aversion to porro's, and after reading here regarding their generally better optics for a given price point, generally superior brightness, and 3D viewing, I seem to be leaning that way. Weight isn't really an issue, as I don't see myself out for long stretches at a time with the bins. Sturdiness shouldn't be a big issue (as it relates to porros versus roofs), as I don't see heavy abuse, though it may be more of an issue than I am aware. Feel free to enlighten me.

5. One my many other hobbies is Astrophotography, and for this reason, I tend to lean to apochromatic optics. From my reading, it seems that this is less of an benefit for small aperature bins, but it is a definite benefit for my imaging scopes. Since primary imaging scope at this time has an ED doublet, and I am very pleased with it's performance, I tend to find myself leaning toward an ED bin. However, I am not looking at a bin for astronomy, I just tend to like ED glass.

My current preferences:

1. Swift Audubon 820ED 8.5x44 (great glass, suspect build quality?)
2. Hawke Frontier ED 8x43 ( Excellent reviews, decent price)
3. Wiliam Optics 8x42 Apo (Great price, good performance, now with phase coatings)
4. Minox BD 8x44 BP (Well reviewed, a little more $$, narrower FOV)
4. Swarovski Habicht 10x40 (circa mid 80's-early 90's) My father in law, who has these (plus some 10x42 EL's) is offering to sell them to me. I figure I could get them for less than $500.


Any thoughts? Am I missing some obvious contenders?

I am not sure if I will be able to find all the contenders to look through, but most online vendors have decent return policies.

Thanks for any help/insights you can provide!

Regards,

Gary

[Steve C]

Get Leupold Yosemites 6x for your wife and girls. Three pair for about $240-250. They are designed for kids and smaller stature adults. But they work fine for the larger than average male as well. Get some 8x for yourself for another $100. That way you will be into a good binocular for everybody for less than the price of a good roof. You will also have two magnifications to use to see which is better.

The Swarovski from father in law are a good deal, especially if he'd throw in the EL at that price.

The Yosemite are better terrestrial binoculars than astronomical binoculars.

The Hawke or Promaster ELX ED (basically the same/verysimilar binocular) really can't be beaten optically at the price. My Promaster is great for Astronomy.

[teamgs]

Thanks for the reply Steve. I hear you about extra bins for the wife and kids. To be honest, one of my girls is only two, and the other is four. I can see a bin for the four year old, and possibly one for my wife. She is more of a hiker for aerobic benefits, versus the "look at nature" type. I may be able to convert her though!

Your reviews of the Hawke/Promaster were one of the main reasons I am seriously considering them.

Any thoughts on the porro versus roof?

Regards,

Gary

[bitterntwisted]

Originally Posted by Steve C

The Hawke or Promaster ELX ED (basically the same/verysimilar binocular) really can't be beaten optically at the price.

Best roofs optically at that price, yes, but what about Nikon EIIs? Surely better optically, and just as cheap. 8x30 format doesn't have any relevant disadvantage over 8x42 than I can think of (Any concern about light-gathering of 30mm objectives allayed by my using them happily 30 minutes after sunset on an English autumn evening earlier). They are very compact and light and sturdier than any porros I've owned. May be small enough for the kids when they're a little older, and the FoV and immediacy of the image is extraordinary. No better view for the money, surely, and should be on the short-list at least, I'd have thought. Sancho?

The only reason I'm looking at another pair myself is that I want some really tough, fogproof, waterproof ones for travel and tougher conditions. (and the reviews here have persuaded me to try the Hawkes - they'll be here tomorrow)

Graham

[Tero]

Go for the Swarovski..you can pick up some 8x later. And you probably will not find better porros than those.

Lots of 8x32s out there for back up and easy birding in warbler season. ED is also going to be around, it won't go away.

On the Swift Audubon, go for the roof, safer.

[teamgs]

Thanks guys!
Can the Nikon EII's be found any more? Is the current 8x32 Superior E the newer model?

Tero,
I don't anticipate picking up a second set of bins any time soon, that's why I was leaning towards the 8X over the 10x, but I never had any issues in the past pointing my old 10x50 quickly and accurately.

What do you think a fair price for an older pair of Habicht's would be? How do they compare to newer mid priced porros?

Regards,

Gary

[Kevin Purcell]

8x42 is a good choice though might also try 8x32 too.

Promaster Elite ELX ED (well discussed here )

Mid range Vortex bins: Fury, Viper and perhaps Razor (just above your limit).

Pentax DCF SP 8x43 (closing out I think so good deals possible)

The Garret is also the REI XR ... it's a Xi'an Scicong Navigator OEMed product. It gets a mixture of reviews (in a few places under different names!). Perhaps the most ordinary and oldest design bin you mention (modulo the porros).

If you do go with 30ish bins there are even more choices:

Leupold Yosemite 8x30 or 6x30 (got to mention them! Inexpensive but good)
Leupold Katmai 8x32 or 6x32
Vortex Fury 8x32 or 6.5x32
Pentax DCF SP 8x32

I'd love to see the 820ED and the Hawke ED and Promaster ED compared. Now that would be interesting.

Narrow down the field and try out the final candidates for real before you choose.

Plenty more people will make suggestions ...

EDIT: Man that was an old window I was using ... I see they already did

[Kevin Purcell]

The Nikon SE I think is only on sale in Japan.

You might be able to find the SE or the E2 as NOS stock in a store somewhere but you won't find them online.

Secondhand is an option.

Porros (especially good porros) have excellent bang per buck. But finding decent modern designs is a problem: as many have complained here they're just not being designed anymore (shame too).

Bushnell Legend 8x42 porro is one for just over $100 is another one to look at.

Try a Yosemite first. Then use that to set your quality level. It will probably rule out the roofs below $300.

[bitterntwisted]

Originally Posted by teamgs

Thanks guys!
Can the Nikon EII's be found any more? Is the current 8x32 Superior E the newer model?

Yes, you can get them. Despite being EOL since 2005 there's been a continuing drip of them. Try In-Focus (which is also a good place to try out some of the candidates) or online here... http://www.acecameras.co.uk/asp/web/.../1/product.asp. The biggest threat to availability of the small numbers is people like me and Sancho wanting a spare pair in case we ever smash these!

The SEs are kind-of replacements, but they're not traditional porros, being waterproof etc. (I'll let one of the experts explain - Opticron do a similar hybridy model, the HR WP) Many speak highly of them but they are also more than twice the price of the EIIs (> £500 vs. c. £250) and I don't think anyone would contend it's significant optical improvement which drives the massive difference in price. I tried them in store and just didn't like the ergonomics as well as getting the blackout problems many seem to experience with them. But search on Nikon SEs and you'll find the many advocates here.

Graham

[bitterntwisted]

Originally Posted by Kevin Purcell

The Nikon SE I think is only on sale in Japan.

You might be able to find the SE or the E2 as NOS stock in a store somewhere but you won't find them online.

The SE does seem to be hard to find now, but the EII keeps on coming, it seems, in the UK at least. Warehouse Express have them in stock and available to order online. It is rather a mystery why a discontinued model keeps coming - mine were new stock in 2007.

Graham

[Tero]

I say, offer the man 350 for the Habichts. It's a good bin, otherwise he will just sit on them or eBay them. And someone eles may get them for 400.

As you can see, they are difficult to price
http://www2.dealtime.com/xPP-binocul...rovski_habicht

[bitterntwisted]

Sorry, flicking between UK/US threads I missed that Gary is in California. Not much help me advocating bins avilable in the UK in £ sterling, is it? Apologies. (Hopefully the tip may be valuable to others reading)

Graham

[FrankD]

Great suggestions all but I like Steve's line of thinking. Get the four year old one of the 6x30 Yosemites. Get your two year old one of those inexpensive 5x or 4x30s from places like Eagle optics, etc... for next to nothing. Then when she puts the objective end of the binoculars up to her eyes she will still be able to see something (yes, I have a 2 year old and a 6 year old so trust me on this one. )

Get the Mrs. a 6 or 8x30 Yosemite or possibly something like the Nikon Action EX 7x35. All are good low power bins with wide fields of view and good porro handling.

That should leave about $300 for yourself. At that price point I would suggest the usual suspects...Nikon Monarch 8x42, Bushnell Legend 8x42, Vortex Fury 8x42 and possibly the new Pentax HRC 8x42. I have the latter on order and should have one in hand some time in the next few days. Another model to consider is the Pentax HS model. It comes in 8x36, is phase coated, fully-multicoated, etc.. but is not entirely waterproof. it goes for right around $170. You could use it as your full-sized bin and then pick something like a Nikon Prostaff 8x25 to use for backpacking or some other activity where compactness is a hair more important than overall image quality.

...at least that is my line of thinking. I like to try to get the most bang for my buck from just about every angle. In this case everyone in the family is happy and then if one bin gets banged up or damaged in some way you have others to fall back on...and yet you still stay within your $500 price range.

[teamgs]

Wow, lots of great advice, and more options to investigate. I think gramps might even have a few oldies that the little one could use.

Let me clarify just a little: If, after coming out with me for a while, my wife decides that she might want a pair, then I will have no problems getting something else.

Right now, my $500 limit is strictly for a pair for me! :)

Off to investigate some more, and see about vendors near me to go try some.

Regards,

Gary

[elkcub]

Originally Posted by teamgs

My current preferences:

1. Swift Audubon 820ED 8.5x44 (great glass, suspect build quality?)
2. Hawke Frontier ED 8x43 ( Excellent reviews, decent price)
3. Wiliam Optics 8x42 Apo (Great price, good performance, now with phase coatings)
4. Minox BD 8x44 BP (Well reviewed, a little more $$, narrower FOV)
4. Swarovski Habicht 10x40 (circa mid 80's-early 90's) My father in law, who has these (plus some 10x42 EL's) is offering to sell them to me. I figure I could get them for less than $500.


Any thoughts? Am I missing some obvious contenders?

I am not sure if I will be able to find all the contenders to look through, but most online vendors have decent return policies.

Thanks for any help/insights you can provide!

Regards,

Gary

Gary,

For < $500 either of the Swaros would be fantastic. The 10x42 EL is the one of choice, — and the company will put them in new condition at no cost (i.e., if there is an issue). My old (1994) 8x30 SLC just came back today in brand new condition — and I'd put the view up against just about anything on the market.

In this case you're looking at one of the finest binoculars in the world, one that's often used for shore birding and hawk watching, but also good for general purpose observation. I use an 10x42 SLC, which is the older series.

PS. Maybe I misunderstood. If he's only selling the 10x40 Habicht that's also a good way to go, particularly if he would accept $400. Otherwise I'd look around for 8x30/32 Nikons and include the 8x32 LXL, which you can buy for about $600 new.

Ed

[teamgs]

Hi Ed,
Correct, he is only offering the Habichts. Although I can borrow the EL's as often as I like. I just would feel a little nervous that I might damage them accidentally, and there is something to owning your "own" pair.

Gary

[ceasar]

I also like Steve's suggestion in Thread 2. He didn't mention that you can get them in 3 different colors too! Brick Red, Ivory and your Basic Black! This should solve any ID arguments!

Here's one in red!http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=4583 (Currently out of stock though.)

Bob

[elkcub]

Hi Gary,

Grandpa has the right idea: use the best. So, I'd recommend getting one of the Nikons for yourself: 8x32 SE, 8x30 E2, or 8x32 LX L. I like the LX L the most, but opinions vary and it may be somewhat more expensive. They will all last many years if taken care of.

Ed

[teamgs]

Thanks all!

I haven't found a local vendor yet, though Bass Pro just opened about 1 mile away. I think they have a decent selection to look at. At least I have a couple of pairs of swaros to compare any choices with. That should give me a good reality check!

Right now, I am looking to get a good pair for myself, before a trip to the Mendocino Coast in three weeks. (10th anniversary). After that, if my wife seems interested, then I will get her a pair.

Gary

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by bitterntwisted

(Re. EII´s:)Yes, you can get them......The biggest threat to availability of the small numbers is people like me and Sancho wanting a spare pair in case we ever smash these!

Graham

Can´t understand the localised availability of these, I´d have thought Nikon could shift thousands of them. All that Graham and others have said about them on the threads is true. If anything, they are a little too small for my hands (and my hands are only medium-sized), so I´d have thought that they would be great for your Superior Officer or the Kids (at least the 4-year old, maybe next year). If you can locate a pair in the U.S., go for them! Best of Luck with your choice, let us know which way you jump!

[Hermann]

Originally Posted by Tero

I say, offer the man 350 for the Habichts. It's a good bin, otherwise he will just sit on them or eBay them. And someone eles may get them for 400.

Yes - but try them out first. The old Habicht porros had a very heavy yellow tint, not really ideal for birding at all. The newer versions are a lot better in that respect.

Hermann

[teamgs]

Thanks again, all, and for the tip regarding the Habicht's tint.

He isn't in any hurry to sell the habichts, I was just talking with him about my search for bins, and he offered them to me. His buddy is using them right now on a hunting trip, but I should be able to look through them on the weekend.

I am interested to see about the FOV limitation of the 10x Habichts, but I don't have anything to compare it to at the moment.

I think I have narrowed it down to the following:

1. Swift 820ED 8.5x44 - $370
2. Nikon 8x30 E2 $250, if the sights listing them really do have stock
3. Nikon 8x32 SE - $450 on Ebay right now. They look pristine from the photos.
4. Inlaw's 10x40 Habichts <$500

The only two on the list that I can look through are the Habichts and the SE. The others I would have to buy and try, then eat the restocking fee.

Regards,

Gary

[OwenM]

Originally Posted by teamgs

2. Nikon 8x30 E2 $250, if the sights listing them really do have stock

Be very wary of those sites. I look for a place with a storefront, and a phone # with a real person on the other end.
Most of the sites that list the Nikon E2 and SE...well, go to google, and type in the "[dealer's name]" and "feedback" for the rude awakening.
Not to put a damper on things, but I've yet to find one site with discounted prices on either Nikon(except $549 SE at one point, plus I'm not referring to ebay sellers) that I'd even consider ordering from.

[teamgs]

Thanks for the heads up Owen.!

BTW, the Ebay bins are listed as "Nikon Premier SE 8x32"

Is there a difference between a Premier SE and Superior E ?

Regards,

Gary

[Pileatus]

Originally Posted by teamgs

Thanks for the heads up Owen.!

BTW, the Ebay bins are listed as "Nikon Premier SE 8x32"

Is there a difference between a Premier SE and Superior E ?

Regards,

Gary

Gary,

No difference at all. Nikon just changed the name.
The Ebay sample looks pretty good, if photos mean anything.

John