[Dimitris]

Hello all,

Found this first winter (?) Tattler yesterday on the South East coast of NSW Australia. Unfortunately the bird didn't call (well I think I heard it call "chew-e! chew-e!" today) and the non vocal id points described in my field guides are giving me a hard time.

Attached are a couple of photos of the bird.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Dimitris

[Dimitris]

Three crops of the previous photos in case they help...

[firstreesjohn]

Points to distinguish Wandering (from Grey-tailed), from 'Shorebirds' (Hayman et al):

1. Wings extend beyond tail;
2. Longer nasal groove;
3. Reticulated rear of tarsus (rather than scutellated);
4. Occurs more on rocky coasts (rather than mudflats);
5. Call rippling trill (rather than disyllabic, upslurred whistle).

I'm finding this difficult, too !

Good luck.

[Dimitris]

Wandering:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Dy3vfYHK8H4/...tler+5686L.JPG

http://bp3.blogger.com/_Dy3vfYHK8H4/...tler+5698L.JPG

Wandering- Grey-tailed head comparison:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Dy3vfYHK8H4/...Comparison.JPG

Grey-tailed:

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DN

[Dimitris]

Originally Posted by firstreesjohn

Points to distinguish Wandering (from Grey-tailed), from 'Shorebirds' (Hayman et al):

1. Wings extend beyond tail; (Yes)
2. Longer nasal groove; (Yes (?))
3. Reticulated rear of tarsus (rather than scutellated); (no idea)
4. Occurs more on rocky coasts (rather than mudflats); (Was feeding with Bar-tailed Godwits on sand today)
5. Call rippling trill (rather than disyllabic, upslurred whistle). (Maybe disylabic whistle)

I'm finding this difficult, too !

Good luck.

I'm finding that the photos on the net match Wandering more then Grey-tailed, but I am prolly wrong...

Cheers and thanks,

Dimitris

[Bruce Ramsay]

Hello Dimitris.
Shorebirds of Australia (Geering, Agnew and Harding, 2007) says that Wandering and grey-tailed are very similar and most reliably distinguished by flight-call - a plaintive rippling trill in Wandering and a clear disyllabic whistle in Grey-tailed.

However, it goes on to further state that, with close views, helpful identification features include:
1. supercilia shorter in Wandering, indistinct behind eye and ending abruptly, not meeting on forehead. In Grey-tailed, it says that the supercilia extend well behind the eye and meet one another on forehead.
2. Wandering slightly longer winged, with wing tips projecting well beyond tail. On Grey-tailed, it states that wing-tip and tail-tip are usually about level.
3.Wandering has plain grey uppertail-coverts whereas in Grey-tailed the outer uppertail-coverts are faintly barred white.
4. in non-breeding plumage, the grey on the flanks of Wandering is less likely to be concealed by folded wings.

Its difficult and probably confounded by the fact that the plumage seems to be that of a worn juvenile, but in my view the bird in your photos seems to more conform with the features of Wandering set down at 1,2 and 4 above. On that basis, and without a great deal of confidence, I'd go for Wandering rather than Grey-tailed.

However, just to throw a spanner in the works, the reference work I have quoted above also gives distribution maps for each species (stated to be the merged sightings databases of the Birds Australia New Atlas project and the Australian Wader Studies Group) - and Wandering is not recorded where you saw this bird whilst Grey-tailed is!

I doubt any of this solves your puzzle, but hopefully gives you some more to mull over.

Cheers,
Bruce

[JANJ]

Two features that can´t be used safely in Dimitris Tattler is nasal groove and primary projection beyond tail tip. Regarding wing tip projection beyond tail tip, Wandering has clear projection beyond, while Grey-tailed has equal - or slightly longer. However -there´s some overlap since juveniles of Grey-tailed often has a similar projection like Wandering.

The nasal groove, which is a good distinction, that is to say if seen well, usually extend longer than half the bill lenght in Wandering - shorter - and approx. halfway in Grey-tailed:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Dy3vfYHK8H4/...Comparison.JPG

In Dimitris bird it´s nearly impossible to get a clear view of the nasal groove but if it stops at the end of the pale line visible in the images, then that would favour Grey-tailed.
Other features are the pale supercilium - which in fact reaches behind the eye, maybe not so clear in some of the images but seen well image 5 rfrom behind.
The tattler is clearly a worn first winter by the patterned coverts and tertials, and while juv/first winter Grey-tailed might have more obvious markings than Wandering this might not be so helpfull in this case since plumage is worn. However the pattern is rather well precerved in the covert area. On balance I would go for Grey-tailed - on range, overall palness - supercilium behind the eye (other forehead feature - like the super meeting over bill base in Grey-tailed and such is difficult to determine from these images) well marked covert pattern at this time of year and nasal groove, although not safely judged from these images.

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A34%3A00%2E000

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A40%3A00%2E000

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A20%3A00%2E000

Wandering:

http://www.pbase.com/gregbirder/wandering_tattler

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/wandering_tattler

JanJ

[Dimitris]

Originally Posted by JANJ

Two features that can´t be used safely in Dimitris Tattler is nasal groove and primary projection beyond tail tip. Regarding wing tip projection beyond tail tip, Wandering has clear projection beyond, while Grey-tailed has equal - or slightly longer. However -there´s some overlap since juveniles of Grey-tailed often has a similar projection like Wandering.

The nasal groove, which is a good distinction, that is to say if seen well, usually extend longer than half the bill lenght in Wandering - shorter - and approx. halfway in Grey-tailed:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_Dy3vfYHK8H4/...Comparison.JPG

In Dimitris bird it´s nearly impossible to get a clear view of the nasal groove but if it stops at the end of the pale line visible in the images, then that would favour Grey-tailed.
Other features are the pale supercilium - which in fact reaches behind the eye, maybe not so clear in some of the images but seen well image 5 rfrom behind.
The tattler is clearly a worn first winter by the patterned coverts and tertials, and while juv/first winter Grey-tailed might have more obvious markings than Wandering this might not be so helpfull in this case since plumage is worn. However the pattern is rather well precerved in the covert area. On balance I would go for Grey-tailed - on range, overall palness - supercilium behind the eye (other forehead feature - like the super meeting over bill base in Grey-tailed and such is difficult to determine from these images) well marked covert pattern at this time of year and nasal groove, although not safely judged from these images.

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A34%3A00%2E000

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A40%3A00%2E000

http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog....A20%3A00%2E000

Wandering:

http://www.pbase.com/gregbirder/wandering_tattler

http://www.pbase.com/dancinec/wandering_tattler

JanJ

JanJ and Bruce thanks a lot for your informative input.

I'll go see if the bird is still present and, hopefuly, it will call putting my head ache to rest.


Cheers and thanks!

Dimitris

[lostinjapan]

Tatlers are always tricky, especially in winter or 1st winter plumage. I have seen 1000's of grey-tailed, but only a few Wandering and even so in 1st winter/winter plumage always find them difficult.

Several of the features mentioned are not always clear cut.

1) The nasal groove does tend to be longer in Wandering, and in this bird it seems to be as Jan J says not to extend too far along the bill. I would say though that is often difficult to judge on many birds.

2) Jan is also right when he says Grey-tailed 1st winters can show primaries extending well beyond the tail...and this birddfoesn't seem to show the extension I have seen in Wandering.

3) The supercilium on this bird seems quite white, wide and to only just extend behind the eye, which is typical of Grey-tailed 1st winter. Wandering in my limited experience have a less obvious super, often with a light grey wash and fails to extend beyond the eye.

The patterning on the coverts and tertials, does seem more like Grey-tailed, as Wandering tend to have plain coverts and tertials, lacking the barring of Grey-tailed.

Something I don't think that was mentioned is that Wandering tends to have a darker buffy-grey overall plumage tone with a grey wash extending quite far down the breastand flanks, whereas Grey-tailed tends to be a lighter grey with less grey on the flanks. This bird seems lighter grey to me and although it is difficult to see seems to lack the obvious grey wash on flanks of Wandering

Habitat is not always the best clue, as I have seen Wandering in estuarine habitat on Hawaii and Grey-tailed on rocky coastline in Japan.

On balance I would say this is most likely a grey-tailed...but you never know.

I hope you can hear the call and clinch it.

Sean

[JANJ]

Note the nasal grove (together with othere fetures), which is rather difficult to see if not close or in close up images, like these for instance:

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthre...extra=page%3D1

http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/viewthre...extra=page%3D1

JanJ