Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Find out what Zeiss have planned at Birdfair 2017

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Saturday 13th December 2008, 16:43   #1
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
Gull ID - Stubber's Green, UK

Seen 13 December 2008, shortly after 1:00pm.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Birding 20081213 018.jpg
Views:	633
Size:	130.1 KB
ID:	172299  
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 13th December 2008, 22:33   #2
Captain_of_Crunch
YVdpep_re64
 
Captain_of_Crunch's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GB / DE / EU
Posts: 1,044
Hi,

I would say it is a second-winter Herring Gull. The "kindly" face is somewhat reminiscent of a Caspian Gull though...

P
Captain_of_Crunch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 09:01   #3
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
This is a picture I have found via Google of what are labelled as 2nd and 3rd winter Herring Gulls. They seem quite different to the bird in my photo.

Does anyone else have an opinion?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Herring Gull (2nd & 3rd winter) 1.jpg
Views:	194
Size:	71.3 KB
ID:	172348  
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 11:09   #4
Ronayne88
Seán Ronayne
 
Ronayne88's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cobh, Co.Cork, Ireland
Posts: 674
I assume you are leaning towards Caspian gull here. I can see how one would lean towards caspian but in my opinion the bill is too stubby and herring gull like for it to be a caspian. The wings are not attenuated enough, once again they seem to fit herring gull. Also, the dark eye is not a reliable feauture to go by and some herring gulls can show this feautue. Anyone please feel free to correct me here.
Ronayne88 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 11:14   #5
Stephen Menzie
Being English isn't about hate. It's about disgust. We're all disgusting...
 
Stephen Menzie's Avatar

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegTelescope View Post
This is a picture I have found via Google of what are labelled as 2nd and 3rd winter Herring Gulls. They seem quite different to the bird in my photo.

Does anyone else have an opinion?
Check the location... They might not even be the same species
__________________
My website
Stephen Menzie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 11:22   #6
Brian Stretch
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: WORCESTER
Posts: 1,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegTelescope View Post
Seen 13 December 2008, shortly after 1:00pm.
It's a second-winter Herring Gull. Simliar birds can be seen here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen...ntatus3cy.html

At least two Caspian Gulls have been present at Stubber's Green recently but they were a third-winter and an adult.

Brian

www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
Brian Stretch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 11:25   #7
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronayne88 View Post
I assume you are leaning towards Caspian gull here. I can see how one would lean towards caspian but in my opinion the bill is too stubby and herring gull like for it to be a caspian. The wings are not attenuated enough, once again they seem to fit herring gull. Also, the dark eye is not a reliable feauture to go by and some herring gulls can show this feautue. Anyone please feel free to correct me here.
Yes, I can see what you mean about the wings.

I didn't want to say what I was leaning towards, because this tends to attract people who seem to take pleasure in pissing on your chips.

We did think we were in with a shout of Caspian Gull, based on the eye, the white head and the plumage, which you can't see that well in my digiscoped picture.

Still keen to have further opinions on this.
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 12:26   #8
KayD
Ochruros
 
KayD's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 837
I observed this gull with Reg and his Dad yesterday.

What interested us about this bird was that its head was very white (with a slight light brown streaking to the back of the neck) combined with the black eye. The bill, although not especially long, looked parralel sided. It stood out like a sore thumb next to the other Herrings.

I have attached another photo of the gull that Reg digiscoped.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Gull05wb.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	93.3 KB
ID:	172391  
__________________
New blog - http://www.eyeofochruros.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter @Ochruros
KayD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 12:45   #9
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Stretch View Post
It's a second-winter Herring Gull. Simliar birds can be seen here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen...ntatus3cy.html

At least two Caspian Gulls have been present at Stubber's Green recently but they were a third-winter and an adult.

Brian

www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
The gulls on this site seem to all have streaking on the head, which our bird lacked.

I think the problem, Kay, is that the pictures aren't great and one might assume that any streaking on the head has been lost due to the picture being over-exposed. I didn't see any streaking on the head in the field.
__________________
Reg

Last edited by RegTelescope : Sunday 14th December 2008 at 12:48.
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 12:50   #10
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Stretch View Post
At least two Caspian Gulls have been present at Stubber's Green recently but they were a third-winter and an adult.
Does that stop other gulls turning up?
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 13:10   #11
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,152
Hi Reg & all.

The gull has more of Yellow-legged Gull structure than Caspian (note the Caspian feature - 'bump' behind the legs) Flatish back, large unmarked head and small looking dark eye might point towards YLG or CG for that matter. The almost unmarked upperparts and relatively large grey area on median covert and no white tips on the primaries seems to advanced for a 2cy Herring, in all, body looks like a 3cy Herring while primaries looks 2cy. Huge variation must be considered, - look at Reg,s linked Herrings, the standing gull looks like a type 3cy or older?, with well marked white tips to primaries and a large mirror on p10, while the other Herring looks like a 2cy.
Some Herring can be more advanced than otheres and have dark small looking eyes as 2cy (usually pale eyes from 2cy), and adult.

Compare with some Caspians here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...cat=1&subcat=2

YLG,s here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...cat=1&subcat=1

and Herring here:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...at=3&subcat=16

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...&subcat=5&kj=2

However the bill is to thin and short for YLG and to short for Caspian. Also primary projection seems to short for YLG and CG, more in line with Herring, which is my vote for your gull.

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 13:18   #12
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
Thank you for an informative and measured response.

There's a lot to take in here and I have a migraine so I'll look at it and the various links in more detail later.
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 13:19   #13
Brian Stretch
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: WORCESTER
Posts: 1,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegTelescope View Post
Does that stop other gulls turning up?
No, not at all, but Stubber’s Green has gained a reputation for attracting Caspian Gulls on a regular basis and if you went in the hope of seeing one, I can understand how this bird would have attracted your attention. From the two photographs posted here, it still appears to be a Herring Gull. All large gulls can be extremely variable in plumage and there will always be a few that stand out, but for that reason alone.

Brian

www.westmidlandsbirding.co.uk
www.worcesterbirding.co.uk
Brian Stretch is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 16:30   #14
tittletattler
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by RegTelescope View Post
Thank you for an informative and measured response.
There's a lot to take in here and I have a migraine so I'll look at it and the various links in more detail later.
Your bird is advanced for a Herring Gull and does show at least a couple of Caspian Gull features so it was definitely worth a shout. Please don't be put off.

Besides, if you don't like headaches, then you shouldn't look at gulls.
tittletattler is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 14th December 2008, 21:59   #15
RegTelescope
Who was breaking away from the pack.
 
RegTelescope's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Wythall, Birmingham
Posts: 503
I wasn't messing around - I really did have a migraine and spent this afternoon napping on the sofa having downed a couple of Ibuprofen.

I like the challenge of gulls and there was no way I was going to convince myself that this was a Caspian Gull without canvassing the opinions of those with more experience.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread.
__________________
Reg
RegTelescope is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th December 2008, 07:20   #16
KayD
Ochruros
 
KayD's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 837
Yes, thanks to everyone for your help
__________________
New blog - http://www.eyeofochruros.blogspot.co.uk/
Twitter @Ochruros
KayD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 15th December 2008, 08:06   #17
tarzzz
Registered User
 
tarzzz's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kiruna
Posts: 2,544
Gulls gulls gulls, they make my head ache... :-(

//Ben
__________________
Practise birdsongs: http://nuolja.se/bs/bs_start.asp
tarzzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 21st December 2008, 20:12   #18
Periwinkle
Tame Valley Birder

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Staffs
Posts: 958
Some more photos and comments on presumably same bird here. See entires for 20th and 21st December.

http://www.chasewater.org.uk/diarymo...ber%202008.htm
Periwinkle is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 13:30   #19
smiths
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the beach
Posts: 796
I realize that a hybrid can never be fully excluded, but I actually see little wrong for this to be a 2w Caspian Gull. The bill could easily fit a (large) male and the underwing is well within the variation.
It is definitely not a Herring Gull.
The thumbnail posted above (message #3) shows two American Herring Gulls, so is not really relevant here.
smiths is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 14:39   #20
HH75
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cork,Ireland
Posts: 4,292
Hi there,
I would like to know what proportion of 2nd-w Caspian Gulls lack a small white mirror on P10? In my opinion, the 2nd-w on the Chasewater website (URL provided in post no. 18) seems to be the same bird as in the original pics (based on the extent of moult being the same, as far as can be made out), and, while it does look a lot better for Caspian in those higher-quality shots, I can't help but note the lack of a white mirror on P10, and was wondering whether this would be within the range of variation for 'pure' Caspian, or if this would indicate Herring Gull genes in there somewhere?
It does look rather good for Caspian otherwise, with the proviso that I have only seen birds of this age in photos.
HH75 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 15:27   #21
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,152
Could be a hybrid Caspian x Herring as suggested but a pure Herring - perhaps not -although structurally it would fit one. However, I don´t see a pure Caspian structurally (good fit on plumage for 2cy type Caspian), large head, wrong bill structure, especially to short-billed if a male, short primary projection and rather short legs, although some Caspian looks shorter-legged - both in the field and in images. 'Bump' behind the legs Caspian feature alright.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/cachinnans3b.html

http://waarneming.nl/foto/view/572763

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.p...&subcat=2&kj=2

Harry - I can´t say anything about the number of 2-3cy Caspians lacking the mirroron p10, but it is a variable character, most of which I have seen have had a mirror, from very small - hardly noticeable, to quite large, clearly visible.
No mirror on this one:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspian3w2.htm

Note similarities on this one to the subject gull, but also note structurally differences, as mentioned above.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspian5w2.htm

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 15:32   #22
smiths
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the beach
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hussey View Post
Hi there,
I would like to know what proportion of 2nd-w Caspian Gulls lack a small white mirror on P10?
About 50%, in my experience.
smiths is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 15:49   #23
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by smiths View Post
I realize that a hybrid can never be fully excluded, but I actually see little wrong for this to be a 2w Caspian Gull. The bill could easily fit a (large) male and the underwing is well within the variation.
It is definitely not a Herring Gull.
The thumbnail posted above (message #3) shows two American Herring Gulls, so is not really relevant here.
smithsonianus on the blackish based tertials in the older individual?

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 17:50   #24
smiths
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the beach
Posts: 796
Yes; and, importantly, solid black tail spots apparently lacking the jagged edges and/or thin, dirty barring usually seen in 3w European Herring Gull. Add to this the very pale iris and the extensively brown-washed hindneck and belly.
smiths is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 22nd December 2008, 18:42   #25
tittletattler
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by smiths View Post
About 50%, in my experience.
If it was a 3rd winter Herring, isn't it more likely that it would show a mirror in P10?

For that matter, if it is a 2nd winter Herring, it could also show a mirror in P10 so it's difficult to use this as an ID feature, perhaps.

Odd bird this one.
tittletattler is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Green Ring on Gull, Baiona, Spain pipaluk Bird Ringing and Banding 8 Thursday 14th August 2008 18:56
Green-realdark Green-rookie CHRIS BECKETT Say Hello 4 Wednesday 20th June 2007 13:44
A Devonian Goes to See a Bonaparte's Gull. (Bowling Green Marsh) Andrew Your Birding Day 4 Monday 21st June 2004 16:48
Green coloured ring of Yellow-legged Gull. Mugil Bird Ringing and Banding 3 Friday 30th January 2004 19:05

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.20033908 seconds with 35 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 00:14.