[Sancho]

Having recently acquired a pair of Swaro EL 8.5x42, I feel I´m spreading my Bino-Lurv awful thin these days, and did an amateurish ABC test today. (My promise to my Financial Manager to do some Asset-Stripping to fund the new purchase was a contributory factor....). The three contenders for "keeper-bins", then, were Swaro EL 8.5x42, Swaro EL 8x32, and Nikon EII 8x30. (In a perfect world I would have had a pair of FL´s and SE´s too, but I can´t find them in shops in Ireland to test). The astute among you will realise that this comparative study is pointless for the following three reasons:

1) They´re all old models. They´ve all been reviewed before by far more experienced Geeks than I.

2) It´s not a "like-with-like" study. There are two magnifications and three objectives in the mix. So perhaps the whole exercise is merely my brain trying to filter results in order to favour the 8.5x42 and justify my extravagance.

3) They are all metal tubes with glass in for seeing far-away things, and in a world where some folk are dropping ordnance on each other in disputes over territory or Gods, and others are desperate for food, water, or medicines for their children, my binocular-testing is almost criminally trivial.

4) In the field (well actually in the local woods and heathland), the actual differences between them involve of numbers of angels dancing on pin-heads.

(And if you´re very astute you´ll see that was four reasons.)

So here´s what I did: I pinned two pages to my shed door and set up a tripod at 12 metres. One page was (appropriately enough) a recent Credit Card Statement, with white and yellow-ish background and words and figures in various sizes. The other was a page from "Birdwatch" magazine, with text on both white and blue-grey background, and a photo of a Snow Bunting on Kilcoole Beach. I moved the tripod further away by degrees to compare and find which bins could resolve best. Then I took the three bins into local woods and out onto heathland nearby. Conditions were perfect: bright and clear to start, then a Warm Front approached, cloud thickened and it started to rain.

I won´t bore with tech-specs, all you get is my entirely subjective musings.

Of the two smaller bins, the EII was a little brighter and sharper in the centre. But the 8.5x42, unsurprisingly, were a tad brighter again. And much brighter in the woods, and when the clouds rolled over (and lastnight at dusk).
I was suprised that all three bins softened considerably away from the centre, with perhaps the greatest "Curvature" in the EII´s. None of them could be described as "Sharp to the Edges", as in the parlance.
The EL 8.5x42 resolved better, in all light conditions. I didn´t expect the extra 0.5 of magnification to make any difference, but it did. Considerably. I could easily read text and numbers on the do-it-yourself chart that I couldn´t quite make out with the EL 8x32, and that I struggled a bit with on the EII. (Now I know what all you 9x guys have been banging on about all these years...)
In the woods, the larger obs of the 8.5x were superb with shadowed areas in the undergrowth. (Strange feature: I thought the DOF of the 8.5 was better than the other two....but I thought lower-mag bins always had better DOF, no?)
I looked for CA again and again while reading the text, and while scanning the horizon, but couldn´t find it in any of the bins. Then, in the woods, when looking at a Mistle Thrush perched atop a tree waiting for the rain, bingo, lateral CA appeared as if by magic, and in all 3 bins. It was most pronounced in the EL 8x32, but it wasn´t a problem, a slight adjustment of angle or focus or a few eyelid-blinks and it disappears (for me).
I tried to find "flare" by moving all three towards the sun when it was bright and low in the East. But I couldn´t find any, and gave up for fear of blinding myself.
I´m an FOV-freak, and love the panoramic view of the EII´s. The 1.4-degree narrower FOV of the EL8.5x42 could take some getting used to, at least at close quarters in woodland when you need it to find the bird. But once you´re onto the bird, FOV becomes irrelevant.
As KevinC said wisely on another thread, one´s fave bin changes over time and by rotating bins you appreciate different qualities in all. If you own any of the above three, don´t obsess about them, go watch birds. I have an optics obsession/disease, and while it may keep me off Strong Liquor and Television, it´s a bit silly and all three of the above are superb instruments.

So which are Keepers? It´ll take a few weeks to decide. The EL 8.5x42, I imagine, will be a better "all-rounder". For the moment, when I look through the EL 8x32, I think "wow, great sharp wide view, fits my hand like a glove". Through the EII, I think "wow, wide, bright, sharp and punchy 3D-effect, but a bit awkward to hold". When I look through the EL 8.5x42, I don´t think anything....my heart goes all fluttery, and I feel I´m seeing the image all the way down to my solar-plexus. Let´s see how long the initial "in-love" phase lasts....

(Now if that isn´t a pile of subjective a..se, what is?)

[OwenM]

That would have been a great comparison if I didn't have it ingrained in my mind that it was pointless from the start!
Besides, I thought sharing this stuff(that most other people don't care about, in their sad, sad little binocularless worlds) is what we came here for

[Guizotia]

Very interesting read!

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by OwenM

That would have been a great comparison if I didn't have it ingrained in my mind that it was pointless from the start!
Besides, I thought sharing this stuff(that most other people don't care about, in their sad, sad little binocularless worlds) is what we came here for

LOL!!! That´s a very good point, Owen...perhaps if everyone had binoculars, there would be so much Binocular-Lurv that Peace and Harmony would reign supreme.....

[Tero]

Yes, one is almost always reminded that one is looking through a device. If I can see the bird, follow it and forget all the technical stuff, it is a good model.

In summer things always look better, brighter. Here anyway.

[Steve C]

Interesting read Sancho. The thing is just about all binocular reviews share some commonality with yours. Mostly it has to do with the simple fact that all things are never equal. It is not possible for reviews ever to be done under the same circumstances. Neither is it possible for there ever to be any agreement on a "standard binocular review format". A reviewer their own more or less standard practice, but it is never the same as somebody else's practice. Besides which, everyone's procedure will modify with time and experience.

Tests are usually done to compare different optical systems to begin with, so there is usually some optical difference involved at the start. The best we can do is to do careful observations under our test circumstances and to try to make the best observations we can from what we saw.

[Kevin Conville]

Originally Posted by Sancho

As KevinC said wisely on another thread, one´s fave bin changes over time and by rotating bins you appreciate different qualities in all.

I think this is another of those konfused Kevin kuotes Sancho. I believe it was Kevin P who said the above.

"Mam says she likes the names Kevin and Sean but Bridey says, Ah no, there's too many of them in Limerick. Jesus, Angela, if you stuck your head out of the door and called , Kevin or Sean, come in for your tea, you'd have half o' Limerick running to your door."
-Frank McCourt, Angela's Ashes


BTW, giving your decision a couple of weeks (at least) is a good idea. Try and clear your mind of prejudice and see which one you want to take as you're going out the door.

[Kevin Purcell]

Hopefully it's not a lame statement that the real Kevin C gets lumbered with

I rather though people were hybridizing me, Kevin P, (in Western WA) with Steve C (in Eastern WA) and perhaps placing that fictional person somewhere on Snoqualimie pass. But you probably don't know WA state geography that well.

Oh well Steve, DHB and myself can chuckle about it

That said I loved Sancho's write up: bin reviewing needs more humor. We take this way too seriously!

[FrankD]

I would be willing to be that if you had to decide right now it would be the E II that would go. (If that is the case then be a good man and let a few of us here on birdforum know before you go puttin' them up on Ebay. )

I cannot say I find fault with any of your observations. There is definitely something addictive about each of those bins. From my personal perspective I think both the ELs pretty much cover everything you could possibly want in a bin. The E2 only falls short in eye relief (for me) and in waterproofing. However, it is, what?, 1/7th the cost of either of the other two?

Now don't take this the wrong way as I have the utmost appreciation of the ELs but there is just something about the clarity of the porro image, especially the image of one of the best porros ever produced. There is a level of clarity there, some folks refer to the lack of "roof haze" (raze?). The ELs most certainly are one of the clearest in this regard but, for me, I still see that in the ELs especially in comparison to the FLs. If the utmost in image clarity and a wide field of view is high on the list then I don't know how anyone could sell the E2s. If you are looking for the better "all around" binocular then I can see how you would choose either of the Els.

[takitam]

Sancho, could you please tell how does your 8x20 ultravid compare to the others in terms of resolution during the day? Of course the answer will be totally pointless, that's why I'm interested

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by takitam

Sancho, could you please tell how does your 8x20 ultravid compare to the others in terms of resolution during the day? Of course the answer will be totally pointless, that's why I'm interested

Darn! I totally forgot to include the Ultravid 8x20! That would have been fun. I´ll do it tomorrow (and I have a curious feeling that in good light the little Ultravid will perfom very, very well against the others....)

Forgot to mention my eyeglasses issue (which is why I bought the EL 8.5x42 in the first place, really). I was able to get full FOV with all 3 bins, with my birding-dedicated John Lennon glasses on. But the most comfortable and forgiving in terms of eye-positioning was obviously the larger EL´s.

Thanks for your kind comments, folks, and sincerest apologies "You Two Kevins" for the confusion. Kevin C, great quote from "Ashes", my folks are actually from Limerick, and I have an Uncle Kevin too, and guess what, he just did a term of evening-classes in Birdwatching.....(actually the monastery of the original Saint Kevin is 30km from my house at Glendalough, and that´s where I saw my first Goosanders....through EL 8x32´s, I think.....). Now I´m going to stop rambling and go and put all my Binoculars to bed. And then my children....

[Kevin Conville]

Well it's official Sancho, I'm jealous!
Not for your collection of bitchin' bins no no, but for birding at Glendalough. I can see myself doing that. If I'm left with any money this summer I may go back over and give that a go. Care to guide?

Back on topic, I'm guessing you'll strongly consider selling the 8x32 ELs. They don't have as much eye relief as you'd like, offer no better view than the EIIs, and you have your low light, foul weather bin in the 8.5x42 ELs.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Kevin Conville

Well it's official Sancho, I'm jealous!
Not for your collection of bitchin' bins no no, but for birding at Glendalough. I can see myself doing that. If I'm left with any money this summer I may go back over and give that a go. Care to guide?

Back on topic, I'm guessing you'll strongly consider selling the 8x32 ELs. They don't have as much eye relief as you'd like, offer no better view than the EIIs, and you have your low light, foul weather bin in the 8.5x42 ELs.

This summer may be just the time to visit Ireland, Kevin, as the government mis-manages the banking crisis more hilariously each day...as the economy collapses, incoming tourists will get a better deal! Of course I´ll be your guide, and your host at Chez Sancho!!!
And on topic, yes, I think you may be right....I´d maybe keep one pair of 8x for woodland, but the EII does that job better with it´s 3D and FOV. Also, selling the 8x32 EL would recoup more of the moo-lah squandered on it´s bigger cousin, and restore Domestic Harmony with my beloved Financial Manager. Bless Her. Unlike my binoculars, she combines all the most-desirable attributes into one glorious package, and is irreplaceable...

[Tero]

Sancho, my binoculars are actually in my night stand, several pairs. That way, if there is an earth quake, they do not fall off the closet shelf. Where the boxes are.

[Dale Forbes]

Sancho, I think you should take your dog to the vet. not looking healthy. I'd get that checked out.
(he may be evil, but he still deserves love)

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Dale Forbes

Sancho, I think you should take your dog to the vet. not looking healthy. I'd get that checked out.
(he may be evil, but he still deserves love)

Darn. What with all my Binocular Geek-Love, I´d forgotten I had a dog. Perhaps he´s jealous.....

[Fireform]

Super job, Sancho. I enjoyed that very much. The 8.5 swaros are among the top bins for good reasons, though I find that the difference between 8 and 8.5x disappears when I'm holding them in my own wobbly hands.

Your review does place me in a moral predicament, though. On the one hand, I know that you are a true seeker, so very close to optical nirvana. On the other, I know that there's no way I'm selling you my SEs.

Moral predicaments. Even the most trivial issues contain 'em.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by takitam

Sancho, could you please tell how does your 8x20 ultravid compare to the others in terms of resolution during the day?

Originally Posted by Fireform

On the one hand, I know that you are a true seeker, so very close to optical nirvana. On the other, I know that there's no way I'm selling you my SEs.

LOL, Fireform! One day, I will find SE´s. It is written.

But for today, I went Geeking About in the garden again, same test as yesterday, but threw in for pointless fun my EII 10x35 and Leica Ultravid 8x20 (for your benefit, takitam!)

Amazingly, the Baby Leicas resolved, to my eye, as well as the 8x32 EL´s in good to reasonable light. Only half an hour after sunset (it was a bright, blustery day) did they begin to dull. They were almost as sharp as the 8x30 EII´s! How do they do that with so little glass? (No, Leica fans, please don´t tell me I should have gotten an Ultravid 8x42, I tried it and didn´t like the feel....)

The 10x35 EII´s resolved better than anything, but they are 10x. They were as bright and sharp as the 8.5x42 right up until dusk when all the birds had gone to bed anyway. Stunning bins. I´d forgotten how good they were ´cos I hadn´t used them in ages.

I took my 8.5x42´s down to Kilcoole earlier in the afternoon, at first I saw nothing at all but it was very pretty. Then a Little Gull came to poodle about over the shoreline, back and forth, and it was gorgeous. Luckily while watching the Gull I completely forgot what bins I was using, so Redemption may be at hand.

I´m leaning towards keeping the Baby Leicas, the 8.5x Swaros, and now the 10x EII´s because I was so impressed and they were much easier to hold than the 8x EII´s. My glove-size is medium, and I find the longer barrels on the 10x35 EII less fiddly than the smaller 8x30.
No more Geeker-Seeking, back to work tomorrow, we´re all awaiting with mild interest the collapse of the economy.....

[Kevin Conville]

Originally Posted by Sancho

This summer may be just the time to visit Ireland, Kevin, as the government mis-manages the banking crisis more hilariously each day...as the economy collapses, incoming tourists will get a better deal! Of course I´ll be your guide, and your host at Chez Sancho!!!

Very generous of you Sancho, thanks. Our economy is crumbling as well and my sector is hard hit so I'll have to see if I make any money this spring before I decide. I spent a couple of weeks walking through Donegal a few years ago and loved it. I've been back in my mind many times since.

Originally Posted by Sancho

Amazingly, the Baby Leicas resolved, to my eye, as well as the 8x32 EL´s in good to reasonable light. Only half an hour after sunset (it was a bright, blustery day) did they begin to dull. They were almost as sharp as the 8x30 EII´s! How do they do that with so little glass?

You're killing me! I want to hate minis and I keep reading these type of comments about the baby Leicas. Now I HAVE to try them, thanks. If only they weren't so brutally expensive. They would fill a niche for me in that they are oh so tiny folded, truly a pocket bin, yet deliver a serious view.
I had 10x25 Trinovids for years but I know they are in different leagues.

This forum is dangerous.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Kevin Conville

This forum is dangerous.

It´s a bloody minefield, I´d forgotten all about Canon IS 18x50 until I saw a thread about them yesterday. (No, absolutely no way......) Yeah, the baby Ultras are great, I take them in my cycling-jacket pocket all the time. Shocking price though...think I got them for 460 euro about two years ago, but they´re closer to 600 now. To be honest, for that kind of money pocket bins don´t really have to be that good, for the amount of actual use mine get (i.e. getting taken out of the pocket), there are fantastic pocket-bins out there that cost quarter of the price.

[takitam]

OK Sancho, your to blame..

Thanks to your remarks I'm going to adopt the baby tommorow.
(Not that I wasn't going to do it earlier)

Isn't that a great smilie?

I wonder if you should get paid for this? But I'll let Leica make the decision.

Pity that my english is such a pita, I'd like to play with it like you guys do:

Shun the Frumious Bandersnatch???- whatever that is I already like the guy.

[Tero]

Bah! I do not need any more binoculars after the 9x36, and none of this is tempting at all.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by takitam

OK Sancho, your to blame..

Thanks to your remarks I'm going to adopt the baby tommorow.
(Not that I wasn't going to do it earlier)

Isn't that a great smilie?

I wonder if you should get paid for this? But I'll let Leica make the decision.

Pity that my english is such a pita, I'd like to play with it like you guys do:

Shun the Frumious Bandersnatch???- whatever that is I already like the guy.

Whoa, there, Takitam....don´t rush into adopting a poor little orphan Leica baby just yet....as I said, there are fantastic compacts out there that cost a lot less. The Nikon HGL 8x20 is said to be optically just as good as the Leica, but costs far less, and if you go porro-compact, Opticron Taiga or Nikon Travelite Ex are a lot cheaper. Your English is fine. That "Shun the Frumious Blah-Blah-Blah" isn´t really English, it´s nonsense verse by Lewis Carroll. Google "Jabberwock". Let us know what you do about the compacts!

[Tero]

I was kind of wondering if I can get a compact in 7x that I could pull out of my pocket any time and catch a bird. I think I need a Bushnell custom now. This happens when I look at sparrows in a field at 10x42 and an EVENT happens in the sky, like a hawk or other big thing.

So I only need 2, maybe 3 or more pairs right now.

[John Dracon]

Sancho - I enjoyed your post for a number of reasons. When a $300 pair of porros compete favorably with the vaunted Swarovski binoculars, it says something. And also because you live in Ireland while I live in rather bleak Montana. We wife are longing to see something green beside our house plants. We won't have anything green (other than the evergreen trees) to look at for at least 3 more months. And we live at parallel 45. This coming Wednesday we drive 650 miles to Seattle Washington, just to get somewhere where we may see some green grass.

I had two Nikon 8x30 E II binoculars which were passed on to friends. They have such short barrels for my very large hands. But the Nikon EII 10x35 stays. It happens to have the very worst covering of any binocular I own. What passes for covering keeps coming off despite re-gluing. Why Nikon didn't rubber cover them is one of those strange mysteries coming out of the Orient. I do have a Swarovski 8x30 porro which is rated as waterproof. It provides an excellent image, (really better than the El or SLCs ) but possesses the worst excuse for fold down rubber eye cups ever put on a binocular. The Swarovski is the old Zeiss classic in form, almost Spartan in appearance. Why Swarovski would make that glass must be an olive branch to the number of old fossils like me who find change difficult to handle.

I hope you do find a Nikon 8x32 SE.

This crazy economy has created some dark humor for English speaking folks and some one liners. In monetary matters liquidity has another definition today. Liquidity according to a broker friend is what happens when you look at your investment portfolio.
John