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1st winter ? Gull northeastern Germany (1 Viewer)

It looks like a YLG to me (at least based on this photo). White head and belly, contrastingly patterned undersides of the wings, coarsely patterned flanks and a strong bill. How common are YLGs in NE Germany?
 
can't exclude a well patterned male caspian from this pic. bill certainly is ok for such and dark individuals occure, also with this strong undertail pattern. if taken in the winter months caspian certainly is the more likely candidate. YLG or caspian. more pics needed...
 
dark cachinnans?

bill looks a bit on the long side for ylg, underside of wings has a pale groundtone, collar is well developed and no smudge is seen around eye. that are my caspian thoughts.

att. 3 examples of caspians with well patterned underside and a 1st winter male with a similar looking bill. even though in the pic of the subject bird bill tip looks blunt by strong bend of upper mandible (better for YLG), the view is not lateral and could be deceiving. for bill shapes of male cachinnans see also last 2 posts here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=134571

still not advisable to put it down as one of the species.

regards
 

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I agree with Lou, I wouldn't id it with certainty either. The feature that made me think YLG rather than Caspian was the dark colouration of the undersides of the wings including the dark looking inner primaries, but due to variation it's not a certain feature, as Lou demonstrated.
 
As there are some variation in underwing coverts in Caspian (and YLG) one shall not rely on this feature to much. Juv/first winter Caspian usually have only tips to axillaries dark barred and with less solid dark areas on rest of underwing. I have not ever seen a Caspian that looks like the YLG here:

http://www.pbase.com/thomasluiten/image/106563260

However, on the other hand, there are of course the more less patterned YLG:

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/65628474

Some Caspians Here:

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/lokki/cachinnans1kvsiipialta.htm

The gull in question looks better for YLG due to heavy bill. Body to fat for Caspian

JanJ
 
Thanks all, it was ´said to be caspian by the poster on another forum. I put it here not to trick anybody but because I couldn´t exclude yellowlegged (and even thought it looks more like yellowlegged though couldn´t exclude caspian either).

So I thought maybe somebody else sees something that makes it definite the one or the other.
 
Correction on Location: somewhere in saxony, so not that much north but still east germany.

does that change the likelyhoods for one or the other(Not that much I guess?!)
 
it depends on time it was taken. but saxony is a stronghold of wintering caspian gulls in europe! up to 2000 ind. regularly winter in saxony! while hardly any YLG (if really in winter now). which forum is it, jörn, can i have a look there?
 
similar bird

this pic of a flying bird from bucharest (by cristian mihai) is somewhat similar in terms of underside pattern and collar, especially the "fat bodied" character (but it turns its belly towards us) made me hesitate to put a name on it, but i'm slightly inclined towards caspian in this as well. (pic 02.12.2008).
 

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2 additional pics of the subject bird in the german forum (for those who speak german, here: http://www.vogelforen.de/showthread.php?t=184170)

http://www.pic-upload.de/25.02.09/fyvt3p.jpg

http://www.pic-upload.de/25.02.09/ujens7.jpg

for me still a well patterned cachinnans.

cheers,

Hi Lou,

I also thought that this bird is most likely a cachinnans. However, the inner primaries shown in the latest pics look quite dark on the inner webs or at least, they don't look pale enough for a typical cachinnans perhaps? So why isn't this gull a (typical?) Heuglin's Gull?

Cheers,

Andy.
 
andy,

there is a pale inner primary window, you can see it in the underwing shots. it would be visible on upperwing if it had its wings more spread.
while primaries and coverts in the pic with visible upper wing appear on the dark side for for cachinnans, all visible (greater) coverts are 1st generation - at this time of year (to the end of february), most heuglini have moulted their coverts due to their advanced moult strategy. heuglini is very rare in central europe while cachinnans is rel. common. (last issue not serving as an argument for the id of this bird but it's always good to think realistic first).

cheers,
 
andy,

there is a pale inner primary window, you can see it in the underwing shots. it would be visible on upperwing if it had its wings more spread.
while primaries and coverts in the pic with visible upper wing appear on the dark side for for cachinnans, all visible (greater) coverts are 1st generation - at this time of year (to the end of february), most heuglini have moulted their coverts due to their advanced moult strategy. heuglini is very rare in central europe while cachinnans is rel. common. (last issue not serving as an argument for the id of this bird but it's always good to think realistic first).

cheers,

Hi Lou,

I'm sure you are probably right and the chances are that this bird is a cachinnans. It would certainly be useful if more images were available of Heuglin's taken in Feb/Mar though.

I stil think that this bird shows darker inner primaries than should be expected of a (typical) Cachinnans. The rounded tips of the inner primaries can be seen in the new images so therefore we can see a lot of the inner webs and they look dark to me. Compare to the birds in the this link:

http://www.kentos.org.uk/North West Kent/CaspianGull6.htm

and photo attached (taken on 9-12-7 by Barry Wright).

Both birds show an obvious 'venetian blind' effect.

Note also how much more chocolate brown the greater coverts are on these birds compared to the darker greater coverts of the subject bird.

Also note this bird:

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/heuglini7.html

This bird, photographed in June, has not moulted most of its greater coverts and those that have been replaced may have been replaced much later than March. Also note how dark the older greater coverts are and compare to the subject bird above. Identical? Well, very close at least IMO. Note also how similar the inner primaries on both the Russian Heuglin's and the German bird are. I also feel that Heuglins may show a larger black eye than Caspian and comparison of the Russian bird to the German bird seems to help support this. Also note the larger, thicker bill of Heuglin's compared to Caspian and note the large, thick bill of the German bird.

And have a look at this one:

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/heuglini12.html

OK, I could be well off the mark with all of the points I've made above, but then who can identify Heuglin's Gull in 2cy plumage in March (fishing line goes out with bait attached.....;))?

To sum up, the German bird seems to show more characters of Heuglin's than Cachinnans. It would be useful to see images of this bird from above to see how advanced the upperpart moult is, perhaps.

Cheers,

Andy.
 

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hi andy,

basically i wanted to outline that this is not a YLG. i still think we don't see enough of the inner webs to p1-5 but admittedly the paler areas have to be more restricted in this individual, which is to a certain extent variable. i have not seen or heard of a cachinnans with all dark inner webs, so they have to be there. look at p3, it shows a very pale what appears to be "fringe" - it is not a fringe of course but a part of the hidden inner web imo.
http://www.pic-upload.de/25.02.09/fyvt3p.jpg
still, a better pic would have been nice.
bill in this bird is more indicative a male caspian that heuglin's. it's shape is perfect for a male cachi while in the average heuglini, even though reminding of caspian in structure including bill, is shorter.
the thing with the coverts - maybe i was too fast to say that "most" heuglini have moulted them by now, it's true that many retain most GC well into spring, i have based this on the first four examples given here: http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini/heug2cy.html

but if this gull indeed had all dark inner primaries it would be a good heuglini candidate (with a bill on the long side of it.).
the one that posted it on "vogelforen" actually didn't ask for the id but was sure from the beginning posting it more as a quiz: "now, who's flying here?" i could try and ask if he scrutinzed this specific bird on it's venetian blind effect.

all the best
 
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