[mscox]

Hello. First time poster here, so be gentle :-)

I'm looking to spend about $300ish on optics. They are not for birding specifically, but that would be a component. The immediate need is a June trip to the 4 corners region of the US (Grand Canyon and Zion National Parks, etc). Users would be 2 adults and 2 children ages 7 and 10.

The only binoculars that I've ever owned is what must be the very low end Bushnell 10x50 porros, given to me as a gift. I think they cost $50 about 6-8 years ago. They seem sort of useful, but I can see a significant amount of what I think is called chromatic abberation and barrel distortion. They seem to almost immediately begin to cause eye strain as well. So, while I may not know much, I know enough to look for something better, and I've spent some time reading on this site and others to try to educate myself a bit.

My question for the group is twofold.

First, do you think I would get the most utility from two binoculars or from one along with a small scope? We'll be spending a lot of time outdoors on our summer trip (tent camping no hotels), so the scope seems like a good choice to just leave up whenever we're in camp. It also solves the problem of shake for the kids. On the other hand it is obviously less portable.

The second part of the question deals with specific product selection. I gather that in my price range there's absolutely no point going for roof prism binoculars, so I'm limiting myself to porro choices only. I'm thinking of:

• Leupold Yosemite 6x30 or 8x30 - great reviews and a nice smaller size for the kids even though they don't need the extra small IPD
• Vortex Raptor 6.5x32 - similar and maybe better than Yosemite?
• Nikon Action EX 7x35 - good reviews and many recommendations on this site
• Leupold Cascades 8x42 Porros - discontinued but still available; I'd probably get these only as the 2nd binocular choice not in combination with a scope
• I'm also a little tempted by Nikon ProStaff 8x25 ATB or other compact reverse porros, but maybe I'd be better off with a more general purpose size first?

For the scope:

• Celestron Ultima 65 (non-ED) - lots of recomendations as a beginner scope
• Brunton Echo 50 - small but I'd be more likely to get by with my existing very light tripod
• Zen-Ray Sedona 80mm - if I decide to go larger rather than smaller

So, what do you think? Scope+binocs or 2 binocs? What of my selections above?

Many, many thanks in advance!

Michael
Texas, USA

[Steve C]

Well, you could just about get everybody their own Yosemite. The big advantage there is the binocular has a small enough IPD to be used by kids, in fact the Yosemite was designed with kids in mind. If they have something they can use, the will be more apt to use it and life during viewing opportunities will be much calmer. The Vortex Raptor has not yet hit the shelves, probably won't for another week at best. This should be a lot like the Yosemite. Vortex says they speced it to beat the Yosemite, but what else would one expect them to say?

CameralandNY still has closeout Stokes Sandpiper spotters for $200, which is a heck of a buy. Much as I like Zen Ray binoculars, the Sedona spotter is just OK.

[James Bean]

Michael, Welcome to Birdforum! 'Try before you buy' (if you can) is always a good idea, since choosing binoculars is a very subjective exercise. Personally, I'd go for portability as the main criterion. For $300 you could afford a mid-size bin for the adults plus a more compact one for the youngsters. Pentax 8x36 DCF HS (roof) for around $150 (very good optics, superb ergonomics, 23oz & 6.5' fov) or, for a wider view, a Nikon 7x35 Action EX for about $130 (all-weather, sturdy, 28oz & 9.3' fov). Smaller/lighter choice could be a Leupold Yosemite 6x30, or perhaps a Pentax Papilio if you like extreme close-ups of tiny wildlife like ants/butterflies (addictive!). When my son and I did the 'Grand Tour' (Grand Canyon, Bryce, Zion, Monument Valley, Lake Powell, etc) five years ago we had just the Nikon 7x20 Travelite III (aptly named) because I had a Nikon F80 (bought in Scottsdale) to lug along too. There were times when a larger binocular would have been handy, but the little Nikon sufficed; my Nikon 60 'scope, although relatively compact, just wasn't on the list, but then our mode of travel was flying half-way across the world, unlike yours. I doubt you'll need greater than an 8x magnification, unless you believe you must have an option for longer-range viewing. Have a memorable holiday!

[Kevin Purcell]

I think the Leupold Yosemite 6x30 might be the best bet (cheaper than the not yet shipped Vortex Raptor 6.5x32). Plus it comes in many colors to minimize arguments about who has whose bins.

A good rule of bin use for any sort of serious use is "one per person" if you can swing it. It really helps to not have to wait until the bird flies off to get hold of the bin.

I'd worry less about the scope (especially for the kids) but if you do decide to get one the Sandpiper is a much better choice than the Ultima 65. I have both and the EP (and so the image) is better on the Sandpiper by a long way. The Cameraland Sandpipers are all straight which is less of a win with different sized people sharing a scope. The angled ones still carry full price (except when you snag a demo ...). And then you have to get a decent tripod. And carry it. And set it up. And scopes are a lot more difficult to get right for a decent image.

Oh, and before you go practice using the bins with your kids. A few tips on bin use can make them a lot easier to use. All the usual novice birder tips apply. You might even consider teaching them the "military porro" grip.

Another consideration is what birds might you see in June in Zion and Grand Canyon (a desert) and on the trip too (I see you are located in "The USA" so I don't know your route ) and to prepare for that too. Some local birding might be advised so the kids can get their eye in for birds and then be impressed by all the odd birds ("It just another Swainson's Hawk, Mom").

Finally the Binocular Bargain's thread might help you find some decent prices for bins you are after.

Good luck and have fun!

[Tero]

8x is probably the most useful, will give you the most years with the same. No idea what month they come out, but these are promising 8x bins.
http://www.eagleoptics.com/binocular...8x42-binocular

Since they are at the web site, they will come out this year. You could give them a call or e mail.

[ceasar]

Yes, you can get a good Roof Prism for $159.00. The Vortex Diamondback 8 x 42 is on sale now at Eagle Optics for $159.00, down from $200.00. I have one. It is surprisingly good! And well built too! http://www.eagleoptics.com/binocular...8x42-binocular. That leaves you with close to $150.00 left to buy 2 Yosemites or the Stokes Sandpiper scope mentioned above for an additional $50.00.
Bob

[rjwims]

I'm with Steve as far entertaining 4 sets of bins, but that would depend on the kids, their attention span, ability to hold them and stay with the program.

A combination of Yosemites and Nikon 7x35's could be had within your budget. Also, the Yosemites are pretty light weight.

Might even be able to squeeze in a field guide.

Good clean family fun....good luck with it...

Richard

[MacGee]

I agree with a Yosemite 6x30 for each child, though you might want to start with one to try out just in case one of the children takes against them (or against binoculars in general). Ideally I would want to take at least one pair of Cascades 8x42 for when greater magnification and higher quality are needed. I also agree that the scope would be better left for another year.

Have a wonderful time.

Michael

[edz]

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of one per each. I think that's certainly a good idea, if you can swing it. But, if I were going to go that route, I would lean towards getting each something that does the job a little differently than the other. For instance, I'd get one child the 6x30 Yosemite, but I'd get the other child the 6.5x21 Papilio (not only is it a binocular, but it is a microscope in a pouch). Trading back and forth can provide different perspectives on the world around you. Then fill out the selections with an 8x40 and a 10x50.

You'll really appreciate the pull of the 10x50 when you start looking across vaste expanses and distances. You'll especially appreciate them if you decide to look up at the night sky, even more-so if you get yourself any tripod, which BTW, is the only way you can show someone else what you've found in the view so they can have a look too.

edz

[lulubelle]

You haven't said how old your children are? If they are very young, it may not really be worth buying bins for them specifically. I agree with the Yosemites - my son used a pair for several years while he had an interest in birding. They are light weight and he said he got good visuals with them. I recently tried out some Cascades and while they weren't the bin for me, they did provide a crisp, clean view and were light weight. I could also recommend the Eagle Optics Rangers 8x42's. They run just a little over $300 and I used them for the last several years and was very happy. I now have the Zen-ray 8x43's and the Promaster 10x42, but they would definitely be too heavy for a child to hold - but the view is great!! Zen-ray also has the ZRS - they are cheaper and have gotten good reviews on this forum by those who have tried them. They are more economical. One thing I would add to the scope discussion is that a cheap tripod is liable to tip over in a decent wind and you risk damaging your scope. Whatever you end up purchasing, I hope you have a great trip with your family and see lots of great things - the geology of that area alone is amazing, with or without birds and mammals!! Take lots of water and take hats. Dry heat can be sneaky, you don't often know you are in trouble until you are almost too late.

[MacGee]

Originally Posted by edz

I don't necessarily disagree with the concept of one per each. I think that's certainly a good idea, if you can swing it. But, if I were going to go that route, I would lean towards getting each something that does the job a little differently than the other.

That was my thought in suggesting the Cascades. But I don't necessarily agree that the Papilio is a good idea. It has a minimum IPD of 56mm, which may make it unsuitable for one or both of Michael's children. Personally I found the Papilio great for looking at very close things, but uncomfortable for general use. I've given up on it and instead use an Olympus reverse porro 8x25 in the summer for a pocket bin and as an extra bin for close-focussing on insects. In the winter I alternate between the Yosemite and the (Opticron version of the) Cascades. All three are very easy to look through and gentle on the eye.

Michael

[ronh]

Michael,
The options are multitudinous, but sharing a binocular requires some patience, politeness, and skill. Did you say ages 7 and 10 ??

Mainly, I just want to say, June, early June especially, is "no see um" season in that area. Hats and long sleeves may be needed, even if the weather is warm. If you notice your scalp is starting to itch, oh man, it is already too late! (bitter experience talking here)
Ron

[mscox]

Yes, ages 7 and 10. I'll measure their IPD to see what will or won't work before I buy.

You all have made me see the wisdom of multiple binocs. Thanks everyone for your opinions and time!

[Alexis Powell]

I agree w/the Leupold Yosemite recommendation. A 6x30 and 8x30 combo would be a nice starting point to have available for the group as a whole. Buy them early enough to make sure your units are properly collimated (i.e. don't have to be returned for replacement). A used ~25x60 scope would be a nice addition. My kids generally don't like to be bothered carrying binoculars unless there is a lot to look at w/them (much more fun to run, climb, chase lizards), but they enjoy the occasional look at choice wildlife (bears, wolves, moose, etc) through a scope.

--AP

[FrankD]

I tend to agree with many of the posts. There are just so many ways you could approach this situation.

Here are some thoughts though to guide you.

With two young boys of my own I can honestly say that you better get two of whatever you get because what one has the other one is going to want. The Yosemite 6x and 8x are identical on the outside (assuming you pick the same colors) so one wouldn't know that one is an 8 and the other is a 6 unless they compare them directly. Having said that though I would probably suggest the 6x for both kids.

Total cost for those two bins should not be more than $170. That still leaves $130 for you and the Mrs. For $130 I would suggest getting the Bushnell Legend 8x42 porro as I think it provides the best optical quality in that price range. Yes, they are a bit large and heavy (compared to something like the $300 roofs [Monarchs, etc...]) but the view is tough to beat at that price point. The 7x35 Action EX would be another alternative for about the same price but I tend to prefer the 8x42 Legend porros to them overall.

If you can stretch your budget just a hair more (say $50-$60) then you could also pick up the little 8x26 Bushnell Legend reverse porro (or possibly two of them for you and the Mrs.). They aren't the anywhere near as good optically as the 8x42 Legend porros but they would be a nice backup if everyone in the family wants to have a bin up to their eyes at any given time.

I would save the scope for another time though I like the little Celestron Ultima 65 in terms of performance vs. price. I would also eventually suggest looking at the little Nikon Sky and Earth 60 mm with the fixed 20x eyepiece. It usually sells for just a little over $100 (discontinued) and offers very good optics for the price.

Hope this helps.

[gnowellsct]

I just sold a pair of 6x30 Yosemites so I would recommend the 8x30s. They are an excellent value. I think that you might consider taking the names given here and spending some time looking on ebay. Especially click on the tabs for "auctions" and look for real auctions rather than "buy it now" (but "buy it now" is useful too). Just make sure you have looked around for Internet new prices before bidding. You should be able to save some money and get a good binocular. I acquired a pair of "wind river green ring cascades" (quite a mouthful) 8x42s (roofs) for $180 shipped which is a fair amount off the prevailing prices I see of $250; it arrived still sealed in the box, sealed in the plastic. So look around. I think Leupold delivers good value even though some of my other binocs these days include Vortex and Pentax. And the 8x30 Swaros I inherited. I bought the Leupolds for a forthcoming trip and wanted a pair that "I could afford to lose" which is a consideration. Greg N

[gnowellsct]

The "wind river green ring cascades" 8x42s are on the bay right now for $200 "buy it now" with $180 auction start price. The seller seems to have more than one of these units it will arrive, if like mine, still sealed. No rush though there's always another pair of binos coming up on the market. Greg N

[mscox]

I thought I'd update everyone on what I ended up with. I got the 6x30 Yosemite, 6.5x21 Papilio, and an 8x36 Monarch. Went over-budget for that, but then I think I'm probably in good company here :-)

Comments on these bins as follows fwiw:

Pentax 6.5x21 Papilio
These were an instant hit! They are easy to handle and use, and kids can find any number of things to look at up close. They become an indoor exploration tool as well as an outdoor one. The image is good but obviously dimmer than the others when cloudy, looking under a tree canopy, etc. Comes with a decent belt pouch and easy for a kid to carry. Definite keepers!

Leupold Yosemite 6x30
These are universal picks for families with kids, but they are disappointing to me. The focuser is a little stiff, and the diopter is very stiff, making them difficult to use especially by my younger one (7 yo). I was also able to reproduce some reflections that I could not seem to do with the other 2 bins, but I did not test this extensively. In part, these may have suffered by the direct comparison with the Papilio which was easier to use and instantly "fun" with the close focus. Obviously, the Yosemite's have some advantages, but these were overshadowed in the bedroom window test with the kids.

Nikon Monarch 8x36 ATB
The adult bin. I have very limited experience with bins, and these are the only roofs I've ever owned. The image is as good or better than the other two in all conditions and *way* better than the $50 Bushnell 10x50's that were my only other bins to date. I like them and expect to get lots of use over the coming years.

I don't think I'll keep the Yosemite. I may go for either the 8.5 Papilios or more likely a pair of small waterproof reverse porros instead. Bushnell 8x28 Excursion seems like a viable option, too, or maybe the Vortex 6.5x32 I mentioned in the original post if they are shipping now.

Now that I've done my best to talk everyone out of the Yosemite, I'll take offers on an essentially new, open box one :-) They never left my bedroom, and the strap, literature, and cloth are all untouched.

Thanks again for everyone's help! It's been a real learning experience.

[Tero]

Enjoy your Papilios. You can do neat stuff with them, the best use.

The Monarch should be OK. If you like wide field, you may want to move to 8x32 in a different brand some day.

[FrankD]

I have never tried the Papilios but your comments have me interested. My one son has the 6x30 Yosemites and he is content with them. Maybe the other needs the Papilios....or maybe dad does.

[Kevin Purcell]

I'd recommend the Papilio, Frank, for people of all sizes.

It's a unique bin. Nothing like seeing a bumblebee at 6.5x or 8.5x normal size. A binocular and portable microscope. A great tool for a budding naturalist. And museum visitor.

[Alexis Powell]

Originally Posted by FrankD

I have never tried the Papilios but your comments have me interested. My one son has the 6x30 Yosemites and he is content with them. Maybe the other needs the Papilios....or maybe dad does.

!!!!!!!! Never tried the Papilios!!!! How can that be! My very first posts to Birdforum (after lurking for quite a while, not feeling the need to comment on anything beyond what others were already saying) were to express my enthusiasm for the Pentax Papilio. Here's the thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....pentax+papilio

I've blathered on about all manner of stuff since then. The only reason that I don't continue to promote them so heavily is that I try to remember that this is BIRDforum. :)

--AP

[Kevin Purcell]

Originally Posted by Alexis Powell

I've blathered on about all manner of stuff since then. The only reason that I don't continue to promote them so heavily is that I try to remember that this is BIRDforum.

Ah, we are the optics subforum ... if we don't blather about it here where else would be do it.

But if Alexis likes the Papillo it must be good

It's certainly not perfect optically but it is unique. And with the weather getting better (it's not waterproof) it comes into it's own for close observation.

[FrankD]

Ok, so give me the run-down of the Papilio now that your experiences have expanded Alexis....

...and you as well Kevin. They seem reasonably priced. What is not to like about them?

[Kevin Purcell]

Optics aren't perfect. I find them perhaps a notch below the Yosemite.

Small exit pupil is fiddley and they use a coupled pair of EP that move relative to a fixed body (a bit like the Canon IS bins).

They have a pretty long focuser so they're not perfect for birding (but better than nothing) but the action is very fluid.

The tripod mount is interesting. Not used it yet but for watching insect behavior it could be a lot of fun. More of a long range microscope. Definitely a one-off bin.

The 6.5x is the better, IMHO.

I got my two: one Cameraland Demo and the other second hand.