[dustyview]

Well, the ZRS may be going back. Does anyone have a suggestion of similarly-priced 10x42s? I'm looking at the Bushnell Legend EX, Diamondback, Celestron Noble, etc. The Cascades for $140-150 seem to have dried up.... These will primarily be car / short hike bins (I have compacts for longer trips afield), so size and weight are not the most important concerns.

Thanks in advance!

[Tero]

Bit of a problem , the cheap 10x. You do not start seeing a benefit in 10x vs. 8x until 300-500 dollars. At the lower end you sill see a bigger slightly more washed out colored bird. Not much new detail at 10x there.

[dustyview]

Thanks, Tero. I think you've posted in the past about the older Excursions. Do you know if the EXs are any better? I will call EO today and get their take (maybe the "new" Diamondbacks have improved resolution and color...?).

The ZRS aren't bad (I'm not bothered by the warm color cast as some are. In fact, it's less than the B&W KR1.5 filters I used for years with film cameras). But last night looking at lit signage at approx. 100-300m I saw that they were noticeably less sharp than the Yosemite porros I just bought for someone else (I know I'm comparing 8x to 10x, but I'm hoping to get that crispness in a 10x, which I use more for distant scanning than close work (e.g. big wetlands, deserts).

[Redeye171]

There are a few Cascades around.
One buy it now and one up for bid......................red

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/carpealiquantum

[Steve C]

I actually wound up with the 10x42 ZRS. I seriously thought about keeping the 8x42. With those I have ( I should say had now) I had difficulty separating from my Vortex Viper 10x42. When my eagle eyed 21 year old nephew had his birthday and got his community college diploma, I offered him his choice of the ZRS or the Viper. He used them both for a few days and gave me back the Viper. His comment was, "I can just see stuff better with these (ZRS)". However, he has the best eyesight of any human being I have ever been around.

One thing that seems to be almost universal is that as your need for magnification increases, the amount of money you need to put into the optic increases too. I have a feeling that if the ZRS is not right for you, then not much else in the under $300 category will be either. The 10x43 ZEN ED should satisfy the budget minded request for a 10x glass.

[dustyview]

Thanks for the input. I spoke with Vortex and they said the new Diamondback was sharper and brighter. I also contacted ZR and for now I have ordered a second pair to see if it might just be the particular pair I received (I can compare the two, and keep one or return both). ZR customer service (and EO, as most of you already know), deserve high marks for both friendliness and making a real effort to ensure a happy customer.

[FrankD]

The Cascades for $140-150 seem to have dried up....

Cabelas has the Cascade porro 8x42s for $180 and I think the 10x42s were only $10 more.

[dustyview]

The second pair of Summits arrived yesterday. I used both side-by-side for about an hour after work, viewing real-world subjects at varying distances (birds and planes) as well as more sedentary subjects (flowers, lettered signs, the mountains). The I took both pairs out again after dark to test them on lit signage targets. The replacement pair is a little better in a couple of ways: the sweet spot is larger and overall sharpness a bit better. The biggest difference is that with or without my glasses, the focus "snaps" better, and when it comes into clear focus I can actually feel my eyes relax to a degree not felt with the original pair. I went through the cycle of defocusing, refocusing with my left eye and then with the diopter a few times with and without my glasses (both pairs), and the new pair would settle into focus without the tiny back-and-forth adjusting that the first pair seemed to want. It could be, as Charles (from Zen-Ray) suggested, that the first pair got some rough handling, or it could be that they simply fall at the the bottom end of the "acceptable" range and the new pair was assembled a bit closer to the ideal specs. Either way, I'm closer to experiencing what SteveC wrote about in his original review. At about $175 these are quite a bargain. In the past few weeks I've tried out several pairs of 10x binoculars from $100 Bushnells to near $2K German and Austrian models, and the ZRS seem closer to the top group than the mid-bottom group. The biggest difference between it and the alphas (for me) was the crispness out close to the edge (I especially liked this in the Swaro EL line), but using these handheld I'm not sure that's much of a functional issue, since I'm scanning through the center. The color cast, while warm as others have noted, doesn't bother me. In fact on a morning like this one, with rain clouds in the sky and an overall bluish cast to everything, they're actually kind of pleasant. They have a decent "3D" feel around the focus area but there isn't a whole lot of DOF when you're not viewing near the infinity point.

[HoosierGuy]

Originally Posted by Tero

Bit of a problem , the cheap 10x. You do not start seeing a benefit in 10x vs. 8x until 300-500 dollars. At the lower end you sill see a bigger slightly more washed out colored bird. Not much new detail at 10x there.

I'm in a bind right now - I have a pair of 8x power that I enjoy - Monarchs. Now I want a 10x. I would go for the 10x Monarchs again but I already have the 8x and I want to try a different brand. That leaves Zen-Ray 10x for around $360. Then at the opposite end is the new Vortex Diamondback for around $220.

The low price of the Diamondback is very tempting. But I've read - it's easier to make a better low priced 8x than it is a 10x. In other words - you get better optics in 8x for a lower price.

I guess what I'm hoping to read from you all is - The Diamondback is great - you will be happy!

Do Diamondback's match Monarchs? Do I go ahead and swallow the price and get the Zen-Rays? The warranty policy for those Vortex sounds nice if I understand it right - life time of the product.

I was at Gander Mountain last night. I looked at the 10x Monarchs to compare eye relief. Also looked at some Leupold 10x power for around $320 or so. Not bad. I was looking at it and noticed it said - Made in Japan. That caught my attention. I thought most binos were made in China now.

[henry link]

Dustyview,

Lots of things go wrong in the assembly of binoculars, cheap or expensive, but usually the defects don't rise to the level of visibility at low magnification. If you are curious about what's wrong with your bad pair I would suggest testing each telescope of both pairs separately on a tripod using the same centered target. One telescope may look worse than the others, something you might not realize when viewing hand held with both eyes.

Unfortunately without star testing at boosted magnification it's usually not possible to guess what's causing the problem. The usual culprits are astigmatism, pinched optics, coma, a badly made roof prism or some combination of those. Another possibility is slight miscollimation. Even if the collimation is within spec, the industry standard for that is pretty low.

[Kevin Purcell]

Even literal star testing (go out on a clear night and look at the stars) can show up gross differences between the barrels.

Easy to do.

HoosierGuy: order both from places that let you return them (EO for the DB and Zen for the ZR ED) and check them out. It's the only way to shop online. The extra cost is one way shipping to return the pair you don't want. Or perhaps two lots of shipping if you don't like either. You can wrap yourself around the axle trying to analyze them based on other comments. If you only try one go with the more expensive one!

[stereotruckdriver]

As you probably already know? Price is always a good indicator of quality, more so in optics than anything else! Kevin gave you good advice, if it is between the two choose the more expensive one! Bryce...

[Kevin Purcell]

Well I say that because I've tried both (not the newest DB) and I know the Zen Ray is very good.

Just trying to knock him off the fence

Analysis paralysis is a terrible thing!

[falcondude]

Originally Posted by Kevin Purcell

Even literal star testing (go out on a clear night and look at the stars) can show up gross differences between the barrels.

Easy to do.

HoosierGuy: order both from places that let you return them (EO for the DB and Zen for the ZR ED) and check them out. It's the only way to shop online. The extra cost is one way shipping to return the pair you don't want. Or perhaps two lots of shipping if you don't like either. You can wrap yourself around the axle trying to analyze them based on other comments. If you only try one go with the more expensive one!

I prefer ordering online with a good return policy so I can really try out the binoculars. It can be confusing to choose binoculars in store with "help" from employees on commisions.

[Kevin Purcell]

Falcondude: I agree. Testing the bins "in real life" and for a couple of days at least is the only way to really know if you like them.

I usual find I don't like bins either straight out of the box (it's really clear they're not for me); after the first serious test session (something bad becomes apparent); or after a few of days use (sometimes they just don't grow on me).

BTW, both of those places I suggested have 30 days return policies (just in case that's not clear) so you can do this though right now I think Zen won't have 8x ED bins until the end of the month so you need to do some careful synchronized ordering.

[falcondude]

Online also has a better price. I walked into a REI the other day. They still have Monarch 10x42 for $339. It is the most expensive price I have ever seen.

[Kevin Purcell]

Originally Posted by falcondude

Online also has a better price. I walked into a REI the other day. They still have Monarch 10x42 for $339. It is the most expensive price I have ever seen.

REI are not at all price competitive for optics. That covers pretty much everything they sell (and I'm sorry to say that living in the home of REI!).

[ChadHahn]

What REI lacks in price it more than makes up for in service. Anything you buy there can be returned at anytime. I've heard tell of people saying that their years old boots no longer fit and getting new boots in exchange.

Of course Nikon has a good warranty of their own and REI's return policy would probably not be needed.

Chad

[FrankD]

Ok, I tried going back through the thread to find it but....REI?

[Kevin Purcell]

Originally Posted by FrankD

Ok, I tried going back through the thread to find it but....REI?

Post #16 Monarch 10x42 pricing at REi.

[FrankD]

Yes, but what does it stand for?

[Steve C]

Recreational Equipment Incorporated

[FrankD]

Thank you Steve. I cannot remember ever having heard of them let alone done business with them. Are they exclusive to your neck of the woods?

[Steve C]

They are (were?) a big deal hiking, backpacking, mountain climbing outfit when I first did any business with them way back in the long ago. They were never inexpensive, but they were always purveyors of high quality stuff.

Since then, they have expanded in to all of the outdoor recreation areas. I haven't done business with them since the Internet began, for what reason I can't really say. But their prices are still high. If they have the same price quality I can't really say. The Monarch price suggests the price levels may have exceeded quality at least in some places.

http://www.rei.com/

[dustyview]

I'm adding this late in the thread, but as an REI COOP member for 20+ yrs. I couldn't let it pass. They offer great products, great service, and great prices on many items they sell, especially ones they design and have made for them (which compete with high-end gear: Marmot, North Face, Patagonia, etc. Not the typical sporting goods store quality). Items like optics and electronics are pricier, but you get 10% back at the end of the year off all regularly priced purchases. A few times a year they offer 20% coupons on a single item. I looked at some 10x42 Monarchs there awhile back and they would have been around $270 with coupon.