[bluesinlondon]

So, am thinking I'm about to invest in one of the 'Big Three' as Leica, Swaro and Zeiss seem to be known. Should I also consider Nikon HG-L?

They're a good bit cheaper than the other three (at least here in the UK), are they in the same league?

I will try any before I make a purchase but I thought I'd canvas opinion here too.

Any other thoughts about the relative merits of each of the above would be gratfeully received.

I want them for general birding and am thinking of the 8x42 options of each.

Thanks in advance

[oleaf]

Blues,

I'd consider Meopta in that crowd. Excellent wide flat view and built to the same standards. Many in the states compare to Swaro SLC. Priced a little over half of the big three but with latest rebates Leica and swaro are very attractive.

Try if you can find a Meopta

Cheers

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

So, am thinking I'm about to invest in one of the 'Big Three' as Leica, Swaro and Zeiss seem to be known. Should I also consider Nikon HG-L?

They're a good bit cheaper than the other three (at least here in the UK), are they in the same league?

I will try any before I make a purchase but I thought I'd canvas opinion here too.

Any other thoughts about the relative merits of each of the above would be gratfeully received.

I want then for general birding and am thinking of the 8x42 options of each.

Thanks in advance

I feel the Nikon HGL's are a notch down from the other two alphas Nikon hasn't really changed them much and I feel they are not top tier binoculars anymore. This may sound old but definitely try the Zen 8x42 ED's. I found the Zen's to be quite a bit superior to my Leica Ultravids 7x42 and way superior to my Nikon 8x32 HGL's both of which I sold and kept the Zen's. When I compared them side by side the Zen's were clearly the best of the three. If you have to have one of the big three then get one with ED glass because I feel it makes a big difference especailly in CA(Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG, or Leica HD). The new Nikons with ED glass although I haven't tried them I have heard from other reviews they are quite excellent although expensive. Again try the Zen's because they are as good as any binocular up to $1500.00. I think the only thing that will best them in optics is the $2K plus Alpha ED's. Certainly don't spend big bucks on a non ED glass. You are buying old technology IMO. If you don't like the Zen's you can always return them!

Dennis

[ceasar]

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's. I have them both in the USA version known as LX L, and they are 1st rate binoculars in the same neighborhood, quality wise, as the others mentioned. I also have a couple of Leica Trinovid BN's.

See below for an interesting comparison of 10X binoculars among the big 4. Nikon did quite well. This review was done in 2004. That was only 5 years ago. There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then! The review is in English, BTW. Nikon has a good warranty program.


http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/...ravid_GB.shtml

Bob

[Steve C]

The Steiner Peregrine XP is a clearly top tier alpha class binocular as well. I have the much less expensive ZEN and Promaster ELX ED binoculars which give me what I need. But, if I were to decide to spend the $$$ for a top tier glass the XP is most definitely my choice. There is a model called the Steiner Discovery which is the same as the Peregrine XP except for the fact the Discovery has diopter adjustments for both eyes, plus the center focus wheel.

At that level, the only ranking of relative merits that means anything is your ranking. You will buy it and use it and it must suit you, not somebody else.

[Pinewood]

Hello Blues...,

First of all, try first and believe your own eyes and hands, more than the comments of others. Those binoculars with ED glass, Zeiss Fl's, Leica Hd, Nikon Edge, Hawke, etc., may provide you with richer colour and crisper images than other binoculars.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

[stereotruckdriver]

Good sound advice Arthur! Believe your own eye's!!! Bryce...

[Veracocha]

Having compared all the makes listed in the op (and many more) last week at the Midland Bird Fair I can safely say you should pop along to a London Camera Exchange and try the Hawke Frontier ED against the Swaro's & Leica's. If you avoid the badge is best approach you will probably come away with the Hawke's. With the savings you made you can come away with the 10 x 43's to boot.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by ceasar

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's. I have them both in the USA version known as LX L, and they are 1st rate binoculars in the same neighborhood, quality wise, as the others mentioned. I also have a couple of Leica Trinovid BN's.

See below for an interesting comparison of 10X binoculars among the big 4. Nikon did quite well. This review was done in 2004. That was only 5 years ago. There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then! The review is in English, BTW. Nikon has a good warranty program.


http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/...ravid_GB.shtml

Bob

"There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then!"

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you there! ED glass becoming generally available in less expensive binoculars like the Zen ED's and Hawke's is really an optical breakthrough and alot of these Chinese manufacturers are using newer and better optical designs with major performance advancements making really top notch optics available to the less well healed consumer. There always seem to be advancements in coatings so a new binocular model is often better that a five year old model because of it.The advancing technology is really exciting and it is bringing down the cost of really superb binoculars. My experience with ED binoculars has proven to me I would not buy a new binocular without it.(Unless of course it is a porro-prism like the Nikon SE). There really has been alot of progress in optics and binocular development in the last few years.

Dennis

[Kevin Purcell]

Originally Posted by ceasar

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's.

Bob: do you have any links for this? I can recall seeing good prices on the HG L about 6 months ago but not so much recently.

Given the OP is in the UK if he's interested in trying out a Chinese ED bin to compare with the other's he should try to find a Hawke Frontier ED which should be rather easier to find in the UK. At least add it to the list.

I think the Zen Ray ED is a slightly better bin (but not by a huge amount). The trade off is ease of purchase (though ZR ship internationally) and ease of any warranty work which can be a pain with international shipping.

The other thing is try the bins. Trust your eyes: they know more than you think!

OP: What bins are you using right now?

[bluesinlondon]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

Kevin, the answer to your question about what I'm using currently is Nikon Action EX. Think it's time for an upgrade and I thought I might as well go all the way...

[Veracocha]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

Yes they compare very well, in the opinion of many optically better. At the birdfair I mention I asked the representatives to compare my Hawke's with their Swaro/Leica/Pentax/Kowa and not one of them could argue that their offering gave a better image.

Sure, the old argument around warranty came out as did the low light comparisons but all things being equal if they outclassed them in bright sunshine I don't expect the Hawke's to be far behing in any condition. Try them, you will have to convince yourself that you can buy four pairs of these for the single Alpha bins. LCE will do them for £260.

[falcondude]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

The price reduction and quality improvement on optics is long overdue. If the binoculars is as popular as personal computer, I am sure we will see better price and higher quality every few years. The Hawke ED and similarly configured Zen ED probably didn't make a breakthrough in term of absolute optical quality. But their real achievement is to deliver the same quality that could have costed for $1700 for $370.

[Kevin Purcell]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

Kevin, the answer to your question about what I'm using currently is Nikon Action EX. Think it's time for an upgrade and I thought I might as well go all the way...

How can it be? It is.

Read the humongous amount we've posted on the "Chinese ED" bins here: first the Promaster, then the Hawke then the Zen Ray.

They really are good. Not quite the tops (I can see the difference) but I think for most people that difference isn't enough for the extra cost. For some though it is. For others the time the company has been around and warranty service count for a lot (Nikon score well on that one). You have to figure out which camp you fall into.

Nikon Action EX is a nice bin and really rather clears the path of the cheaper roofs to get something with at least as nice view plus the ergo features of a roof. Plus I also think it should have sensitized you to a good view.

Going all the way is smart too. Often given advice that is often ignored until one builds up experience step by step.

Read a bit more for context but try some bins! Ergos count too. Which bins fit you best or feel the best is often the deciding factor at the top end.

BTW, is there a local birding group you hang out at? Often you can try out an interesting range of bins at a local watch with people only to happy to show off their latest and greatest (or the oldest and still greatest in some cases ).

And aren't there some bird fairs coming up too?

Good luck.

[FrankD]

I still count the Nikon Premier/Venturer/HG/HGL/LX/LXL/ at the same performance/quality level of the Zeiss, Leica and Swaro models that were present up until very recently. I do have to say that I agree that ED/FL/HD glass makes a noticeably improvement to image quality. With that thought in mind I would argue that the Nikon EDGs, Leica Ultravid HDs, Swaro EL HDs and Zeiss FLs provide superior optical performance to the LXLs, Trinovids, ELs and original Zeiss Victorys.

I also enjoy using the Meopta Meostars, the Nikon SEs and the Zen Ray EDs. All provide superb optical performance at a significantly less expensive price.

[CharleyBird]

If you're looking in London, you could try Tottenham Court Road;
Kingsley Photographic about half way up north of Goodge Street on the west side stock Hawke (bit more expensive there than the LCE) and others,
Spectrum near the Warren Street at number 128 also on the west side stocks Steiner and others (though I bought my Steiners elsewhere)

Regards

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by Kevin Purcell

Bob: do you have any links for this? I can recall seeing good prices on the HG L about 6 months ago but not so much recently.

Given the OP is in the UK if he's interested in trying out a Chinese ED bin to compare with the other's he should try to find a Hawke Frontier ED which should be rather easier to find in the UK. At least add it to the list.

I think the Zen Ray ED is a slightly better bin (but not by a huge amount). The trade off is ease of purchase (though ZR ship internationally) and ease of any warranty work which can be a pain with international shipping.

The other thing is try the bins. Trust your eyes: they know more than you think!

OP: What bins are you using right now?

Kevin,
I don't spend time on European sites. I assume, rightly or wrongly, that Nikon is doing the same thing in Europe with their HG L as they are doing here in the USA with their LX L's and SE's which are now going under the name "Premier."

If one keeps alert, there are good buys yet to be found. Right now, Eagle Optics is selling the 10 x 42 SE Premier for $899.99. This is about $200.00 less than they sold for 2 years ago. Personal opinions of it's ergonomics aside, they are arguably still the best 10x birding binocular ever made. And it's doubtful if they have changed their lens coatings in years. The 8 x 32 Premier (old LX L) is selling for the same price, which is roughly what it always sold for. The same for the 8 x 42's and 10 x 42's. All much less expensive than the big 3. And they all have Nikon's warranty.

As for ED glass. Any one who wants to find out about it's merits in binoculars can review Henry Link's thoughts on it in a number of threads in this forum.

And, Yes, OP should try them out before buying them. And it wouldn't hurt to prowl around in the smaller stores. He might be able to find a deal there on some that haven't moved for years. It happens!
Cordially,
Bob

PS: I can't think of a better upgrade from a Nikon Action EX than to a Nikon SE!

[ThoLa]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by ceasar

PS: I can't think of a better upgrade from a Nikon Action EX than to a Nikon SE!

I´ll second that. If you don´t need "waterproof", and if you like the porro design, you would be hard-pressed to find optics like the Nikon 8x32 SE at any price. They can be had in the UK for about 500 euro...I got mine from Warehouse Express. Even though they´re not roof-prisms, they´re rubber-armoured and very, very comfortable in the hand.

[bluesinlondon]

Crikey... The can's open and there are worms all over the place!

Comments about Chinese EDs are er... interesting...

I've read praise of the Nikon SE's elsewhere too...

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

How much of a handicap is the 'non waterproof' (bear in mind I'm in the UK, and even as I write this, in June, it's p*****g down)?

[Veracocha]

Originally Posted by ThoLa

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

So, when you say "many" does this mean you admit that there are some without a biased interest? Does that not offer a chance of impartial advice without the brainwashing you mention.

To dismiss opinion so readily smacks of arrogance.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by bluesinlondon

Crikey... The can's open and there are worms all over the place!

Comments about Chinese EDs are er... interesting...

I've read praise of the Nikon SE's elsewhere too...

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

How much of a handicap is the 'non waterproof' (bear in mind I'm in the UK, and even as I write this, in June, it's p*****g down)?

Yeah, it´s a minefield, and a field-day for optics marketeers. The Nikon SE 8x32 compares on a par with any top-end 8x42 out there. At least IMHO. I have a Swarovski 8.5x42, and the SE is sharper. Bear in mind also that the porro design gives a better 3D image, for close work or woodland. And as regards waterproofing, it came up on some other thread....I know the kind of weather you can experience (I´ve lived in the UK), but just think...I live in Ireland...we get those anticyclones before they even reach Wales!

And now the downside...a lot of people experience "blackouts" with SE´s. The eyecups are a bit odd, I think without glasses they´re rather long(depending on the shape of your eye-sockets); I use them with glasses and get a perfect FOV with the eyecups rolled down almost fully.

The bottom line is....don´t buy yet. You need to test binos for your hands, your neck, your eyes and sockets and nose (and wallet). Try as many models as you can, in cloudy conditions if possible, in as many stores as you can, and from friends. Only when you´re reasonably sure of your preference should you buy...and then (unlike yours truly), don´t get too obsessed, all the top-end binos are similar and none are really "better" than the others...they only differ from each other in various minor aspects.

[dustyview]

Dry humor, ThoLa?

To the OP: As someone who has been in the market for two pairs of bins recently, I've spent some hours myself in the big sports retail stores here in the US (and some small places, too), viewing optical targets, out big picture windows, etc. I've made a point, when I find what seems like a great mid-priced binocular, to compare it to one from the big three (Leica, Zeiss and especially Swarovski, because of their favor among birders - I've now spent time with multiple samples from the EL line). The fact is, there are binoculars in the $200-500 range that are quite close in image quality to models costing US $1500-2000 (and seemingly build quality, too, although you would have to use a pair for a few years to really evaluate that). If you can, find someplace where you can try the new Chinese-made ED binoculars as well as other brands.

Originally Posted by ThoLa

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

[FrankD]

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

I would agree as well. They are just as bright, just as sharp and actually noticeably lighter. The only "issue" I have ever heard mention is slightly more critical eye placement to avoid blackouts. I don't have this problem with them but I have read that others do.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by ThoLa

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

Just for the record I have no biased interest. My opinions were based on comparing the binoculars in question and giving my honest opinion. I would have never sold my Leica Trinovids and Nikon HG if they were better than the Zen ED 8x42. I have no interest in Zen at all. I just compared the three and said these Zen's are better than these Leica's and better than these Nikon's so why keep them. I kept the best of the three. In fact it was very easy to see the Zen's were sharper and produced a better image. It was not even close. Try them and make your own judgement. After viewing through the Zen I hated to go back to the Leica's or the Nikon HG's and that's the truth. The first time I looked through the Zen Ray's after I received them I said to myself "HOLY SXXXT THESE ARE GOOD! AND FOR ONLY $370.00. WOW!" I am very impressed with them even if you forget the price.

Dennis