[postcardcv]

I know it's been on the way for a while but it does look interesting - http://crave.cnet.co.uk/digitalcamer...9302535,00.htm It will be interesting to see the spec and price point for it, no doubt an doffical launch must be on the way very soon (I see at least one UK retailer has it listed as coming summer 2009). I wonder it it will effect the sales of cameras like the Canon G10, Panasonic LX3 and the Sigma DP2...

[NoSpringChicken]

I'm sure Neil will have one within a few weeks of its release and will be posting sample shots on this forum. I notice from the link you posted that Samsung are developing a rival system, using a larger sensor. Yet another format battle.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/digitalcamer...01298-1,00.htm

Ron

[NoSpringChicken]

There is a comprehensive preview of the Olympus Pen E-P1 on the dpreview website now. I haven't read it properly yet but my initial concern is that I don't like cameras without a viewfinder. It's probably less of a problem to younger generations who have been brought up with compact digital cameras and camera phones.

At least it looks different to other products and can have me reminiscing about the little Olympus XA rangefinder which I still own.

Preview here:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/olympusep1/

Ron

[pduxon]

pre order price on W/express:

with 14-42 £699 and with 17f2.8 £749

I must admit the later combination will be VERY tempting when the price falls. Can slip in jacket pocket when out with dSLR and big lens.

given the price falls of the 500d and D5000 I reckon we could see it under £500 by christmas.

[NoSpringChicken]

The dpreview sample images look very good, especially since they were all taken with +/- 0.0 EV. There is some speculation that it is the best four-thirds product so far, with the TruePix V processor and sensor tweaks producing superior results to those from the E-3 and E-30. That bodes well for the next generation of E series cameras.

Ron

[postcardcv]

It does look like a very nice little camera, it will be interested to see one in the flesh... though at that price I won't be buying one, but if it starts to creep down it could get tempting.

[pduxon]

Originally Posted by postcardcv

It does look like a very nice little camera, it will be interested to see one in the flesh... though at that price I won't be buying one, but if it starts to creep down it could get tempting.

well the Canon 500d was £868 three months ago and is under £600 today. The Nikon d5000 has fallen about £200 in two months.

so if Samsung bring there version out I reckon we could be under £500 in the new year.

If it gets to under £400 I would be SO tempted

[mickg]

Tempted also when prices fall, as I find the constant changing of lenses when out birding in places where decent landscapes can be shot, a bit of a pain. Also the videos look decent.

BTW can you imagine it with a Bigma stuck out of the front!

Mick

[pshute]

Originally Posted by NoSpringChicken

There is a comprehensive preview of the Olympus Pen E-P1 on the dpreview website now. I haven't read it properly yet but my initial concern is that I don't like cameras without a viewfinder.

No viewfinder? That's interesting, I assumed that any camera with an interchangeable lens would automatically have one, but I guess this isn't aimed at that part of the market. There seems to be an optional external optical viewfinder, but I don't know how it works.

While it would be possible to put a telephoto lens on it, I think it might be hard to use for bird photography without a viewfinder - it helps me aim it and keep it steady.

The retracting lens is interesting, but apart from being useless with a long lens, might actually be a nuisance - cameras with retracting lenses take longer to turn on and off.

The IS and good high ISO performance that will make it a good party camera should also help make it a good digiscoping camera though. If the price comes down.

If cameras like this sell well, it'll be interesting to see how Canon and Nikon will react. The mirrorless Samsung APS format camera someone else mentioned is even more interesting to birders. If it sells well it might prompt them to simply remove the mirrors from their SLR and replace them with electronic viewfinders, assuming that will make them cheaper. I can't see a proprietary Samsung mount helping things though. It would be great if Canon and Nikon made a 4/3 camera, but they'd have to be really under pressure to do that, I think.

[iveljay]

Mine will have the fixed focal length lens and viewfinder - it should be great for people, landscape and townscape work and hopefully will provide a viable replacement for my excellent film based Hexar. I don't think many people will buy it as a party camera! The larger sensor and Olympus build make it a very attractive alternative to the few competitors out there, (unless you can afford the M8).

For birds and wildlife I shall continue using my slrs now supplemented by the excellent E-620.

In theory you can use the new adaptor for non micro 4/3 lenses, but why make life difficult.

I really dont think that Olympus ever thought of it as a birding camera, anyway it probably won't focus fast enough for that use, though it may have its uses for macro?

Really excited about this - can't wait to compare it with the LX-3.

[iveljay]

Somewhere I have an accessory viewfinder which will cover the zoom range, a hangover from the Leica screw type cameras and may experiment with that.
I am afraid that cameras without viewfinders are really throw back to the old days of field cameras as far as I am concerned - great with a tripod, blackout material and reading glasses but unuseable otherwise - a problem with ageing eyes with no accomodation!

[Adey Baker]

Originally Posted by iveljay

I am afraid that cameras without viewfinders are really throw back to the old days of field cameras as far as I am concerned - great with a tripod, blackout material and reading glasses but unuseable otherwise - a problem with ageing eyes with no accomodation!

Absolutely! Olympus haven't really thought the design through, have they. How long before they have to incorporate an additional mini-EVF with dioptric correction to fit in the hotshoe rather than the optical one.

It seems to me that the stylists have over-ridden the designers with this camera - sure, many people will be queuing up to get one in order to be seen with it but after the novelty has worn off you're left with a decent compact camera rather than a genuine system camera

[postcardcv]

The lack of viewfinder is fairly obvious given that it's not an SLR - the camera doesn't have a mirror box (that's an essential part of making it so small) so I couldn't have a SLR style viewfinder. So they had three choices, either an EVF, an optical viewfinder that doesn't view through the lens (it it was anything like those on the Canon G series cameras it would be rubbish) or no viewfinder at all. Given the quality of the screens these days I think that not having and optical viewfinder or an EVF is a reasonable option.

[Adey Baker]

But they have given it an optical viewfinder as an optional accessory, but for full compatibility (it is supposed to be a system camera) you'd need a different one for each focal length or a very bulky (expensive?) zoom one to cover any current and future lenses.

Peter, your eyes are younger than mine - I can use the live-view on my 40D but manually focussing via the LCD screen is difficult without my reading glasses, whereas normal use via the viewfinder isn't a problem. Whether or not the Olympus can be used easily in bright sunlight remains to be seen.

EVFs aren't as good as a reflex viewfinder - yet. The G1 has got around the lack of a mirror by using one but, from the reports that I've read, it isn't quite 'there' just yet. It probably needs the next generation of EVF to get close enough not to worry about and this is where Olympus's innovation should have come in. If they could have incorporated it into the overall design (and styling) of the EP1 then they would have been onto a winner!

[pshute]

Originally Posted by Adey Baker

EVFs aren't as good as a reflex viewfinder - yet. The G1 has got around the lack of a mirror by using one but, from the reports that I've read, it isn't quite 'there' just yet.

Potentially, EVFs could be better than a mirror. My Canon S3's EVF, with about 115,000 pixels, isn't good enough. My Panasonic FZ30, with about twice that, is much better. I haven't used a G1, but with twice that again I image it is, as you say, nearly there.

The G1's 480,000 pixels is just 800x600, so surely we can expect that count to be doubled and doubled again eventually, then surely it will be "there".

In the meantime, EVFs have some advantages over mirrors already. Many cameras have a manual focusing mode that magnifies the centre portion of the EVF as soon as you start adjusting the focus. You can add a "critical focuser" to many SLRs, but not instantaneously like that.

An EVF can also boost the brightness, making manual focusing possible when it might be too dark to do it with a mirror system.

I guess though, that a mirror will always have the advantage that it uses no power.

I think some EVF cameras have put people off them by preventing you from composing the next shot while the previous one is being processed. My S3 isn't too bad for birds in flight, because it has a live display during processing. But the FZ30 is useless, as it freezes till processing is done. But they are both old cameras, perhaps all EVFs show a live view now.

[Adey Baker]

I think the 'refresh rate' or whatever it's known as now is a little behind with EVFs at the moment, as well as out and out resolution. But I'm sure there'll be improvements which will be applied to both EVFs and Live-view screens. Brightening the viewfinder image, as you say, or showing the precise exposure level that will be recorded, movable auto-focus points are just some options.

With both LCD screens and EVFs you have the choice of how you take the shot - with the screen at arm's length you can keep an eye on how the total scene is developing outside of the frame and with the EVF you have that 'intimacy' of the traditional viewfinder which cuts you off from the surroundings and lets you concentrate on what is within frame.

To my mind, it's the way things are heading with SLRs anyway - in a few years we won't have the noise and vibration (and minor time-lag) of that flipping mirror. We'll just need a new term when 'reflex' camera no longer applies!

[pshute]

Originally Posted by Adey Baker

To my mind, it's the way things are heading with SLRs anyway - in a few years we won't have the noise and vibration (and minor time-lag) of that flipping mirror. We'll just need a new term when 'reflex' camera no longer applies!

I assume the question of what to call these cameras has been done to death elsewhere, but it's interesting that people are reluctant to call them anything but SLRs. Even though a camera really only needs to have a single lens, which could be fixed, and a mirror to be an SLR, the term has come to imply a removable lens.

For now, Dpreview is categorising them as SLRs. Given that so many people go shopping for an SLR, I'm betting that dealers will be very reluctant to stop using the term, and that they'll become known as mirrorless SLRs, or EVF SLRs or something like that. Illogical, but does logic matter to marketing departments?

[RJM]

I got to play with one today. Olympus is going to sell these by the boatload! I managed a few pics with my phone before being pounced on by a sales rep.

cheers,
Rick

[screaming piha]

Originally Posted by Adey Baker

Olympus haven't really thought the design through, have they.

I suspect they have. The EP-1 is the first in a line of such cameras. An EVF will be available.

[Adey Baker]

Originally Posted by jdj

I suspect they have. The EP-1 is the first in a line of such cameras. An EVF will be available.

Ah, I see. They sell loads of these because people will want to be seen with one and then they'll sell them the one that they really want with an EVF later! Promote that marketing man

[iveljay]

Not buying the zoom so I don't need an EVF!

[Adey Baker]

Originally Posted by iveljay

Not buying the zoom so I don't need an EVF!

The trouble is that the optical viewfinder ruins the sleek lines of a very smart-looking camera and the LCD screen may be difficult to use in bright light for instance.

If Olympus (the masters of miniaturising full-frame cameras) could incorporate an EVF into the camera body as it stands then it would suit everyone. I used to have an Olympus RC compact camera 30+ years ago, which actually incorporated a coupled-rangefinder viewfinder into the body (left hand side as you look from the back) - if they could make a small EVF and place it there, perhaps by making the LCD a touch smaller, etc., then they'd have a camera that would be genuinely useful as well as a 'looker'

[RJM]

I think the concept behind micro-4/3 is an upgrade camera for those who have only shot with a P&S in the past and can't deal with a bulky, rather ugly dSLR. For those folks, using the LCD comes naturally. And now that I have a camera with LiveView, I find myself using the LCD more too when shooting from a tripod to compose and check white balance. Remember the LCD will show 100% while the viewfinder on most dSLRs now are 90-95% that gets really dim at small lens apertures. It really just boils down to breaking with old habits and adjusting to the new technology.

cheers,
Rick

[Adey Baker]

I think that many people who own a DSLR want a smaller camera that maintains the image quality which compact digital cameras just haven't delivered with the very small sensors + large pixel count. These people will provide a significant number of potential customers for the EP1.

The mini-EVF will be the new technology and will hopefully allow stop-down lenses (very old technology!) to be used at the same brightness as open aperture - you'll have the choice of 'bright' or 'actual' or something like that.

As has been mentioned before, the current LCD screens are not good in bright sunlight and they're not very useable for people with eyesight problems + using a camera at arm's length is not the best way to get the sharpest images, even with image stabilisation.

[pduxon]

Originally Posted by Adey Baker

Ah, I see. They sell loads of these because people will want to be seen with one and then they'll sell them the one that they really want with an EVF later! Promote that marketing man

the target market are those using compacts. Now come on how many people do you see using the viewfinder with a compact? if the viewfinder is as good as Canon's in a compact then forget it.

Now what I want is a Compact without exchangeable lenses with a decent sensor and a decent zoom. I'd settle for the sensor from a Canon xxxd or a Nikon d60 with a lens range of 18-55 (28-85 equiv). That'll do me nicely.

So if Canon or Nikon want to stick one in a compact count me in. I suspect tho that it may be panasonic who do it first. Or maybe Sigma will learn how to make a compact! Although the price of a DP1 is becoming temping.

Have compacts really improved? We have bells and whistles, better screens but I've seen nothing that makes me go wow compared to my Canon A620.

what does surprise me about the EP1 is it screens are not as good as those on many panasonics.