[Richard Klim]

Mata, Fontana, Maurício, Bornschein, de Vasconcelos & Bonatto 2009. Molecular phylogeny and biogeography of the eastern Tapaculos (Aves: Rhinocryptidae: Scytalopus, Eleoscytalopus): cryptic diversification in Brazilian Atlantic Forest:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...bceaded1d031fe

The abstract suggests species-level divergence within Scytalopus speluncae Mouse-colored Tapaculo. Does this refer to S pachecoi, S diamantinensis and/or S notorius, or is this something new?

Richard

[Daniel Philippe]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

... or is this something new?

Yes ... and this is what I gather from their findings:

Eleoscytalopus :

E. indigoticus (northern populations)
Eleoscytalopus sp nov (eastern Paraná)
E. psychopompus


Eastern Scytalopus :

S. iraiensis

novocapitalis clade :
S. novocapitalis
S. pachecoi
Scytalopus sp nov (Serra de Espinhaço, Minas Gerais)
S. diamantinensis

speluncae clade :
S. speluncae (northern populations)
Scytalopus sp nov (southern populations)
Scytalopus sp nov (Serra da Ouricana and Serra das Lontras, southeastern Bahia)
And perhaps :
Scytalopus sp nov (Escarpa Devoniana, eastern Paraná)
Scytalopus sp nov (Serra do Caparaó & Serra de Mantiqueira, southeastern Minas Gerais)

On the other hand Scytalopus notorius is not recognized (following Bornschein et al., 2007)

[Richard Klim]

Thanks Daniel.

My understanding is that the only one of these eastern taxa to occur in Argentina (Misiones) is pachecoi.

But is there any suggestion in this study that the range of the southern population (sp nov) of the speluncae clade could also extend to Misiones?

Richard

[Daniel Philippe]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

But is there any suggestion in this study that the range of the southern population (sp nov) of the speluncae clade could also extend to Misiones?

No … you understood correctly . The southern populations have been found in Paraná highlands and in Serra Geral, NE Rio Grande do Sul …so far.

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe

No … you understood correctly . The southern populations have been found in Paraná highlands and in Serra Geral, NE Rio Grande do Sul …so far.

Thanks again Daniel.

These little fellas are sure getting complicated!

Richard

[Melanie]

Here is another interesting article about Eleoscytalopus

Hidden generic diversity in Neotropical birds: Molecular and anatomical data
support a new genus for the ‘‘Scytalopus” indigoticus species-group
(Aves: Rhinocryptidae)
Giovanni Nachtigall Maurício a,*, Helena Mata a,b, Marcos Ricardo Bornschein c, Carlos Daniel Cadena d,
Herculano Alvarenga e, Sandro L. Bonatto

http://evolvert.uniandes.edu.co/EVOL...es/mpe2008.pdf

[Richard Klim]

Melanie,

I think it will be quite a challenge in the field trying to confirm the diagnostic features depicted in Figs 4/5/6 with my 8x bins.

Richard

[Richard Klim]

Maurício, Bornschein, de Vasconcelos, Whitney, Pacheco & Silveira 2010. Taxonomy of "Mouse-colored Tapaculos". I. On the application of the name Malacorhynchus speluncae Ménétriés, 1835 (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae). Zootaxa 2518: 32-48.
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2010/f/z02518p048f.pdf

[See also http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100610]

Richard

PS: I note that the authors use 'Ménétriés' (eg, as Dickinson 2003), while most authors/authorities (including CAF) use 'Ménétries'. Comments from our French-speaking regulars...?

[GMK]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Maurício, Bornschein, de Vasconcelos, Whitney, Pacheco & Silveira 2010. Taxonomy of "Mouse-colored Tapaculos". I. On the application of the name Malacorhynchus speluncae Ménétriés, 1835 (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae). Zootaxa 2518: 32-48.
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2010/f/z02518p048f.pdf

[See also http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=100610]

Richard

PS: I note that the authors use 'Ménétriés' (eg, as Dickinson 2003), while most authors/authorities (including CAF) use 'Ménétries'. Comments from our French-speaking regulars...?

I'm not a French-speaking regular, but Ménétriés is the international library standard spelling, or so I am reliably informed, as was made clear in Raposo and my last contribution on this issue in Rev. Bras. Orn.

Well, finally, it seems o Gaucho (Maurício) has come with a paper to really try and deal with the issue of speluncae vs. notorius, rather than half-baked assertions (if that) based on crap photos and 'faith'. It will be interesting to read the whole thing and see if he convinces, although I suppose that he still hasn't been to St. Petersburg and actually held Ménétriés's type in his hands, but perhaps Luís Fábio has?

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by GMK

Well, finally, it seems o Gaucho (Maurício) has come with a paper...

...and the 'I.' in the title suggests that at least one more related paper is in the pipeline.

Richard

[l_raty]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

PS: I note that the authors use 'Ménétriés' (eg, as Dickinson 2003), while most authors/authorities (including CAF) use 'Ménétries'. Comments from our French-speaking regulars...?

It's also sometimes spelled Ménétriès. These spellings imply significantly different pronunciations in French, so they are certainly not interchangeable as long as you remain with this language--and I've never heard it pronounced anything but "Ménétries" (rhyming with 'tree').
He was French, but worked/lived in Russia. Maybe Ménétriés/Ménétriès somehow reflect how Менетриес ended up pronounced by Russians...?

[GMK]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

...and the 'I.' in the title suggests that at least one more related paper is in the pipeline.

Richard

Well, I think that both sides of the debate would accept that there are some grounds to split speluncae / notorius into northern and southern taxa, which will warrant at least one additional paper. And, the authors of the latest paper will doubtless still want to split populations in the southern Espinhaço from those in the north (diamantensis), and address the problem of the Scytalopus in the Serra do Ouricana in southern Bahia (first recognised as something different by the late Bruce Forrester). The flip side of that coin is that a conservative taxonomist could, I think, find reasonable rationale to lump all of pachecoi, diamantensis and novacapitalis, as well as Bornschein et al.'s (2007) taxon novum. But that's for another day.

[Xenospiza]

In the corrigenda for the Howard & Moore list, Dickinson uses Ménétriés (page 2 in http://www.naturalis.nl/sites/natura...%205%20d1r.pdf).
If only I'd get the chance to pronounce his name pedantically one day!

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

In the corrigenda for the Howard & Moore list, Dickinson uses Ménétriés (page 2 in http://www.naturalis.nl/sites/natura...%205%20d1r.pdf).

Indeed, so reaffirming the supposed correctness of Ménétriés (eg, p598: Ménétriés's Warbler, Ménétriés, 1832), contra Ménétriès (eg, p1037: Index - Warbler, Ménétriès's 598).

Richard

[l_raty]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Ménétriés's Warbler

So, "Me-ne-tree-yeah-'s Warbler"?
(This is what the acute accent implies, if the name is French.)

[Richard Klim]

I had no opinion on the spelling either way. But, as Xenospiza has indicated, given that a particular spelling was explicitly reaffirmed in the H&M corrigenda, I'd assumed that this had been carefully validated. However, ultimately I prefer to accept the judgement of a true francophone...

Richard

[GMK]

The latest contribution in this long-running saga...

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by GMK

The latest contribution in this long-running saga...

Thanks, Guy. So, one Scytalopus sp nov tidied-up.

Richard

[GMK]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Thanks, Guy. So, one Scytalopus sp nov tidied-up.

Or a synonym of an almost 190-year-old name; depends on your view, I guess!

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by GMK

Or a synonym of an almost 190-year-old name; depends on your view, I guess!

Well, at least it puts the proposal in the spotlight, to sink or swim!

Richard

[Richard Klim]

Van Remsen has submitted a proposal (#463, Aug 2010) to AOU-SACC to recognise Scytalopus petrophilus.
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop463.html

Richard

[SteveO43]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Van Remsen has submitted a proposal (#463, Aug 2010) to AOU-SACC to recognise Scytalopus petrophilus.
http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop463.html

Richard

Proposal 463 passed 5 March 2011

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Maurício, Bornschein, de Vasconcelos, Whitney, Pacheco & Silveira 2010. Taxonomy of "Mouse-colored Tapaculos". I. On the application of the name Malacorhynchus speluncae Ménétriés, 1835 (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae). Zootaxa 2518: 32-48. www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2010/f/z02518p048f.pdf

Raposo, Kirwan, Loskot & Assis 2012. São João del Rei is the type locality of Scytalopus speluncae (Aves: Passeriformes: Rhinocryptidae)—a response to Maurício et al. (2010). Zootaxa 3439: 51–67. [preview]

[l_raty]

(Sorry, revisiting a much older part the thread.)

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

However, ultimately I prefer to accept the judgement of a true francophone...

Remaining baffled by the three accents in Ménétriés, as I still have to meet somebody who would pronounce his name this way in French... The spelling varies even in books printed during his lifetime, and of course what gets printed in a book, ultimately, is always composed by a typographer who might make mistakes... So I figured I could try looking for handwritings, for a change. Results:

1. The single letter from his hand that I could locate is indeed unambiguously signed "Ménétriés".
   
2. I also found a few letters that others addressed to him:
   - Carl August Dohrn used "Ménétriés". (See also here--second page, middle of the text.)
   - Carl Johan Schönherr used "Ménétriés".
   - Carl Gustaf Mannerheim used "Ménétriés".
   - Coenraad Jacob Temminck used "Ménétrié".
   - Antoine Bartélémy Clot-Bey used "Ménétrier".
   - Pierre André Latreille used "Menestrier".
   The most obvious result is of course that "Ménétriés" is the most frequently used spelling.
   But the variants here are interesting too, as they are not at all the same as in the literature. What we have here, are misspellings made by people who had heard his name, but didn't really know how it was to be written. Unlike the printed variants, all the spellings above imply the same pronunciation for the ending.

Clearly, "Ménétriés" must have rhymed with "étrier" (stirrup)--not at all with "étrille" (velvet crab), which is how it is invariably pronounced in French nowadays.

...Curious to know how those who now write it with a third accent pronounce it in their respective language...

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by l_raty

Clearly, "Ménétriés" must have rhymed with "étrier" (stirrup)--not at all with "étrille" (velvet crab), which is how it is invariably pronounced in French nowadays.
...Curious to know how those who now write it with a third accent pronounce it in their respective language...

Fascinating research, Laurent.

Without ever really thinking about it, I'd always assumed that the "s" in the spelling "Ménétriés" would be silent – although I imagine that the ending "-iés" must be very uncommon or even unknown in standard French?

...but of course gaining a pronounced "s" (actually, "z") in the English possessive form "Ménétriés's". So, as you suggested earlier, "Me-ne-tree-yeah-'s".