[Pileatus]

While you're blabbering on BF, the Chinese are building a modern economy.

http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/news/2...ews040416c.htm

Excerpt...
"During the three days of the conference, more than seven hundreds of papers were to be presented, which are related to new areas such as laser technology, remote sensing technology, and quantum information technology"

This event was in 2004 so maybe you missed it. I can't speak for the folks at Zen, Hawke, or Promaster but I'm quite certain their R&D consists primarily of picking numbers from a Chinese optical menu. Do you really think Eagle Optics R&D department pulled all-nighters to develop the Atlas look-alike? No, they made some phone calls and maybe someone went to China...to pick numbers from a Chinese optical menu. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

The Zen isn't good because of Zen; it's good because the Chinese know how to make a binocular. Zen, Hawke, and Eagle Optics can request modifications (as Zen recently did in a timely manner) that can improve the final product. The optics, I'd venture to say, are designed and manufactured solely by Chinese optical engineers. A long time ago many of my best students were Chinese, especially my teaching assistants. Trust me when I tell you they were deadly serious about their academic endeavors.

John

[shaocaholica]

Thats why most of the really good ones work in the west, where the pay is better.

As for optical menus, the Japanese do it too. Cosina/Tamron/etc has and still makes low to high end optical products for the big Japanese camera companies. I'm sure they'll even design and make you a set of binos if you asked (and paid).

[SG6]

I think that we have pre built a conception of the quality being low for everything out of China. It may have started out but has undoubtly improved in various areas, probably specialist areas, over time.

I have an interest in Astronomy and one of the best refractors is produced by TMB, Tom Back in the US. However the lens are designed and produced in Russia. Since it cannot be a question of production costs, the numbers are too low, so cannot someone in the US produce the lens to a similar quality? Nearly all main stream scopes are now Chinese/Taiwanese produced. Lots of features and good quality.

I would say that yes there are areas where the quality is lacking but it is still a case of you get what you pay for, and no doubt there are chinese factories that are producing good grade optics, but they won't be the cheapest. They will not be selling a $20 lens for $5.

I suspect very highly that there are a lot of chinese optics in binoculars that do not carry anything that implies "Made in China" on them.

Years ago Japanese cars were considered a bit of a joke, not any longer. Japanese motor bikes have gone down the same route.

Look at the present situation with Hyundai and Kia cars - they offer 7 years servicing with the car. Any American or European car maker doing the same?

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by John Traynor

A long time ago many of my best students were Chinese, especially my teaching assistants. Trust me when I tell you they were deadly serious about their academic endeavors.

John

I can second this. I taught in China in the eighties and nineties, and since then in four other countries for comparison. There is nothing, repeat nothing, like a classroom full of Chinese students....they want to lap up knowledge and their desire to achieve is phenomenal. This is why, in the 21 years since I first taught there, China has moved from being a third-rate producer, to being the world´s third largest exporter. Complaining about Chinese exports sounds very like Roman commentators towards their Empire´s demise, sneering at the advance of the Huns and the Vandals. All joking aside, the future is Chinese.

[Steve C]

Originally Posted by John Traynor

I can't speak for the folks at Zen, Hawke, or Promaster but I'm quite certain their R&D consists primarily of picking numbers from a Chinese optical menu. Do you really think Eagle Optics R&D department pulled all-nighters to develop the Atlas look-alike? No, they made some phone calls and maybe someone went to China...to pick numbers from a Chinese optical menu. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
John

You are quite likely correct. I think the pick-it-off-the-menu vs design-it-by-yourself binocular probably runs the gamut from just having the OEM simply put "Joe's Binocular" label on a totally off the shelf glass to a pretty much in house design that is contracted to the particular OEM. Vortex and Leupold have varying capacities to design the whole binocular, while others may have to pick from the menu. How much influence they might have with the OEM is likely directly proportional to the predicted sales volume that can be generated.

Now for Zen Ray, Charles is a UCLA educated Opto/Mechanical Engineer who is probably quite capable of starting with a blank computer screen and producing a design. You are more than likely correct in the assessment that he did not design the ZEN ED. Especially since it was the third of the four clones that have showed up. Promaster and Hawke beat him to the punch. What that education does is enable him to pick existing designs and companies that can be worked with within the parameters of the design to produce "similar but different" binoculars. How much of the work he does with the engineers at the OEM can be made "his" is likely contractual in nature, and again dependent upon how many dollars he is capable of generating. The more a company can sell, the more clout with the OEM they will have.

So we have, from Zen Ray labels, a faster focus rate, dielectric prism coatings, and a x36mm compact. At some level that is R&D and at some level that R&D is done by Z-R, since they were the first company to request it and see it through to manufacture.

What Atlas/EO did with the Intrepid or what Hawke and Promaster may or may not do is an open question I guess.

[Fireform]

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.

[CLRobles]

Originally Posted by Fireform

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.

100% right! And who knows how long they will be here to boot!

[shaocaholica]

Originally Posted by Fireform

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.

But just being that has caused them to get pretty popular around here so its clearly an untapped segment of the market. The end result is what counts, not so much how you get there. Perhaps we should praise the OEM mfg in China instead of ZR? If ZR goes away, I'm sure that other company in China will still be around willing to sell to the next ZR.

[dustyview]

Hold on CL.... Vortex did the same thing, and they seemed to have gained real market share.

Originally Posted by CLRobles

100% right! And who knows how long they will be here to boot!

[Fireform]

At the very least, it's enough to make a person wonder what a "lifetime warranty" means when it refers, as on the Zen website, to the oh-so-vague "lifetime of the product." Does it mean that the warranty lapses when the product is discontinued? My impression is that "the lifetime of the product" means whatever they say it means at any given time, and likely nothing if the importer goes under.

The western expectation that you'll be able to send your Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons in 10, 20, or even 30 years after you bought them and get them properly refurbished is very unlikely to apply to a product like this, IMO, lifetime warranty or no.

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by Sancho

.................................. All joking aside, the future is Chinese.

Demographic issues; not manufacturing and trade, will determine if your prediction will come true!
Bob

[shaocaholica]

Originally Posted by Fireform

The western expectation that you'll be able to send your Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons in 10, 20, or even 30 years after you bought them and get them properly refurbished is very unlikely to apply to a product like this, IMO, lifetime warranty or no.

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

[CLRobles]

Originally Posted by shaocaholica

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

I have sent many 10 yo + swaros back! mostly for user error that caused damage and they have always been serviced very quickly and have yet to be charged!

[CLRobles]

Originally Posted by dustyview

Hold on CL.... Vortex did the same thing, and they seemed to have gained real market share.

True but they are still very young and their market share is very, very small.... But they do have a toe hold and should be commended for their business model.... but look at their prices!!!! They have steadily risen.... have you seen the price on their new 15x56 (which looks just like a Swaro by the way).... $1200! You can get a Docter Optic 15x60 for $1100.... So much for low prices of the start-ups

[Fireform]

Originally Posted by shaocaholica

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A.

A "lifetime warranty" is not a set of pretty words meant to entice buyers. I have every expectation that the lifetime warranty on my Zeiss FLs will be in effect indefinitely, and that it will cover whatever the bins require. Swarovski owners know that if anything goes wrong with them, Swaro will make it right, period. Leupold is famous for repairing, reconditioning or replacing any golden ring product they are sent, regardless of how old they are or who originally bought it. I've sent Nikon optics in for warranty service and reconditioning on several occasions long, long after the purchase and had them returned like new. That is what a lifetime warranty means. Consumers most certainly do not "simply forget about it."

I doubt very much that this will be the deal with the Zens. For one thing, neither the manufacturer nor the importer has any experience with such warranties. For another, what do you mean by "the company"? The importer, Zen-Ray itself? Do they have the stock and facilities to continue maintaining these bins 10 or 20 years down the road? I seriously doubt that. And the anonymous company in China that actually builds the bins--we don't even know for sure who they are. Can they be relied upon to honor a warranty if they disband after a few years of production, or simply decide 10 years from now that doing so isn't profitable anymore? I doubt that too.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese are not making junk and passing it off as gold--despite the trashy accessories we've seen so far, the instruments themselves are superb for the money. But I do have qualms, like this one, about buying from China. You can't tell me that the consumer is as secure buying from some nameless factory with no history in a communist country as they are dealing with companies that have been in business since before WWI. That's not credible.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Fireform

Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A.

A "lifetime warranty" is not a set of pretty words meant to entice buyers. I have every expectation that the lifetime warranty on my Zeiss FLs will be in effect indefinitely, and that it will cover whatever the bins require. Swarovski owners know that if anything goes wrong with them, Swaro will make it right, period. Leupold is famous for repairing, reconditioning or replacing any golden ring product they are sent, regardless of how old they are or who originally bought it. I've sent Nikon optics in for warranty service and reconditioning on several occasions long, long after the purchase and had them returned like new. That is what a lifetime warranty means. Consumers most certainly do not "simply forget about it."

I doubt very much that this will be the deal with the Zens. For one thing, neither the manufacturer nor the importer has any experience with such warranties. For another, what do you mean by "the company"? The importer, Zen-Ray itself? Do they have the stock and facilities to continue maintaining these bins 10 or 20 years down the road? I seriously doubt that. And the anonymous company in China that actually builds the bins--we don't even know for sure who they are. Can they be relied upon to honor a warranty if they disband after a few years of production, or simply decide 10 years from now that doing so isn't profitable anymore? I doubt that too.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese are not making junk and passing it off as gold--despite the trashy accessories we've seen so far, the instruments themselves are superb for the money. But I do have qualms, like this one, about buying from China. You can't tell me that the consumer is as secure buying from some nameless factory with no history in a communist country as they are dealing with companies that have been in business since before WWI. That's not credible.

This is true. So it boils down to a matter of consumer choice that has existed with all technologies for ages....Buy a superb product, very expensive, to include superb after-sales service (Rolls-Royce), or buy an excellent, more affordable product that won´t last as long, and that you may need to replace in the mid-term (Ford, Toyota...). The difference with these new Chinese Optics is that although the price is "mid-range", the quality by all accounts if very close to "alpha". It´s really just a matter of choice, and like many bino-users, the new Chinese binos make it a realistic proposition to cover both bases....one pair of expensive "alphas", plus a pair of Chinese super-bins as "back-up", or in a different configuration. What Chinese Optics have done for us now is to give us greater consumer choice, which is what Free Trade Capitalism was supposed to be all about, no?

[Fireform]

To a point, that is indeed what free markets give us. I take exception, though, to the likelihood that these bins are being sold with a "lifetime warranty" that is not a lifetime warranty in the sense understood by their customers. That is deceptive, and it wasn't done by Toyota or Volkswagen.

I have a pair of 7x36 ED2s on order myself, mainly because nothing like their optical spec is offered by the alphas. A bright, compact, waterproof optic with 477' of view is tough for a woodland hunter to turn down. But the fecus in the Chinese punchbowl is their lingering contempt for contracts, intellectual property rights, patents and western ethics generally. Until convinced otherwise, I look upon their warranty as not worth the paper it's written on.

[shaocaholica]

Originally Posted by Fireform

To a point, that is indeed what free markets give us. I take exception, though, to the likelihood that these bins are being sold with a "lifetime warranty" that is not a lifetime warranty in the sense understood by their customers.

But the fecus in the Chinese punchbowl is their lingering contempt for contracts, intellectual property rights, patents and western ethics generally. Until convinced otherwise, I look upon their warranty as not worth the paper it's written on.

Firstly, the notion that "lifetime warranty" will entail the repairing or replacement of a product while the company (in this case, Zen) is still around applies to all companies. In 10 years, if Zen is still around, I would expect them to honor their lifetime warranty on your or mine ED2s. Don't forget, Zen is an American company with a Chinese supplier. Guess what, a ton of American companies are including some very reputable ones.

In contrast, if any company goes under, how can you expect them to do anything at that point? I'm sure there are tons of very very nice western products sold with lifetime warranties that can no longer be honored not because the company is bad but because its simply gone. You can't expect service after those circumstances. Do the alphas have trust funds or something in case they go under there is still a resource available to fund service? Even Zeiss has got its hands into supplying many now dead companies. Look at Rollei camera and Contax camera both who used Zeiss lenses. Do you think Zeiss will service those lenses today when those companies perished decades ago despite those lenses bear a prominent Zeiss name?

I think Zen is surely entitled to offer their lifetime warranty. Your qualms with it are a bit baseless though. You can't just say that if a company gets its products manufactured in China, they can't offer a lifetime warranty. Whats the logic behind that? I think this is an issue that is company specific and must be looked at per company. Zen is a new company and I'm sure its owners don't intend for it to fail but they cannot guarantee that nor can any other company. What they can do is offer full service while they are still around and thats about all they can do to assure you. What more can they do to earn your trust realistically?

Also bear in mind this. I asked Charles of ZR if he could send me another pair of ZRS binos so I could compare their ER and pick the one that was more comfortable. I told him to charge me for both and I'll take a shipping/restocking hit on the pair I didn't want. However, he just sent me a pair without asking for a penny and told me to send back the one I didn't want in trust. I think thats more than I could ask for from a start up with no history. Zen is building its reputation right now and you are part of it. Yes you can always say it doesn't have any past service history but I wouldn't so far as to make baseless assumptions about its future.

[kristoffer]

With the high performance and quality of Zen Ray´s products along with their low prices compared with how Swaro, Leica etc. keep raising the price of their bins I would not worry about Zen Ray going bankrupt and fail to meet their guarantee claims. I would on the contrary be more worried about other company's. Zen Ray takes honest market shares with a high quality product for a low price. The others have to adept or fail. It seems like ZR got the future ahead of them. Now just make a scope version of the ed2

[fugl]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

With the high performance and quality of Zen Ray´s products along with their low prices compared with how Swaro, Leica etc. keep raising the price of their bins I would not worry about Zen Ray going bankrupt and fail to meet their guarantee claims. I would on the contrary be more worried about other company's. Zen Ray takes honest market shares with a high quality product for a low price. The others have to adept or fail. It seems like ZR got the future ahead of them. Now just make a scope version of the ed2

Mere whistling in the dark. Companies as legal entities responsible for such things as warranties come & go, even big well-established ones like Nikon or Zeiss much less tiny outfits with little in the way of physical assets like Zen-Ray. If a binocular or spotting scope pleases you & you have the money to spend, by all means buy it. With luck, if it should need servicing down the road, the company will still be around to take core of it for you. If not.....? That's what capitalism & limited liability companies are all about--everybody takes his chances.

[Fireform]

The logic of my question is perfectly clear: what value is a warranty for the "lifetime of the product"? You don't seem to know how to answer the question, or to understand what a lifetime warranty is, so I don't see how you can affirm the value of the Zen's warranty.

One could think that it means that the warranty is good until the product goes out of production, or frankly one could just as easily argue that the lifetime of a product ends when it fails. The one thing that is beyond question at this point is that their warranty is unproven.

[shaocaholica]

Originally Posted by Fireform

The logic of my question is perfectly clear: what value is a warranty for the "lifetime of the product"? You don't seem to know how to answer the question, or to understand what a lifetime warranty is, so I don't see how you can affirm the value of the Zen's warranty.

Alright, I just went there and read the wording. I'm not sure what is really binding, the wording on the website or the piece of paper that comes with the product. In either case, "lifetime of the product" means to me, "as long as its still in production or the company still has some stock". From my personal experience with ZR, I would personally trust them to replace a product with a newer model if its out of production as long as the defect is indeed not user error. But thats my personal take. Yes, I don't expect ZRs $400 binos to have the same level of service as $1400+ binos but I also don't really care since, like I said, I can pay out of pocket for replacements/upgrades many times over before I hit the price of a single alpha bino.

Edit:
Also, look at all the cheap cutting edge technology around you. Your PC, your iPod, your digital camera. Those items don't come with uber warranties either. Why? Because they know they will be obsolete within a short time window and they really don't need to keep them in service beyond that window. I personally would rather have cheaper warranties, faster revisions and cheaper prices rather than more robust warranties, slower revisions and higher prices. But hey, thats just me. If you prefer to have a more robust warranty at a higher price, thats your prerogative.

I have 1000s of dollars invested in electronics, computers, and even optics that I know will be obsolete in a matter of years or in some cases months considering how fast these industries are moving these days. I personally go for balance in all areas rather than the extremes. If I could afford it, I would go for the extremes but I'd rather have 4 "toys" with lesser warranties than 1 "toy" that I can expect to keep forever when I'll probably end up replacing them all anyway. Thats how I roll.

[falcondude]

Originally Posted by CLRobles

I have sent many 10 yo + swaros back! mostly for user error that caused damage and they have always been serviced very quickly and have yet to be charged!

"many 10 yo+"! How many Swaros do you own?

[Sancho]

Slightly left of topic here, but how many people in the US or Europe, in recent years, bought shares in gilt-edged financial corporations that now either don´t exist or have been nationalised? Lots. There are no gilt-edged guarantees. You pays your money, you takes your chances. With dishwashers, bank shares, or binoculars.

[CLRobles]

Originally Posted by falcondude

"many 10 yo+"! How many Swaros do you own?

Only one pair of EL 10x42's right now but I have personally owned at least a dozen pair in the past 18 years and when working at the last optics dealer that I worked it was pretty common to send trade ins and used buys to Swarovski for refurbishing......