[denco@comcast.n]

I know this has been talked about before but I have a pair of Leica 8x20 BC Trinovids and I like them but the eye relief is a little short. I really have to hold my eyes a little ways back from the eye cups to see the full FOV. I know 8x32's are way easier to use but I like the compacts for their SMALL size. Has anybody found an 8x20 that is not a pain to use? How about the Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elite E2? I know it isn't waterproof and it is a little bigger but does it perform better than the little 8x20's from Swarovski, Zeiss, and Nikon? What is your favorite 8x20?

Dennis

[RJM]

I think all the 20mm class bins are too dim in all but the brightest light. I prefer the brighter ~25mm compacts and my current fav is the Pentax 9x28 DCF LV. Pretty good value now for $170 shipped from Adorama.

cheers,
Rick

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by RJM

I think all the 20mm class bins are too dim in all but the brightest light. I prefer the brighter ~25mm compacts and my current fav is the Pentax 9x28 DCF LV. Pretty good value now for $170 shipped from Adorama.

cheers,
Rick

Hmm. They look pretty nice. 13 oz., 18mm ER, phase corrected,waterproof, 1.8 x 4.5 x 4.6 inches (little big for a compact). Funny they went with 9X in a 28mm instead of 8X. FOV is a little small at 294 feet. Your right about the little 20mm class being dim when the light starts falling they really get iffy. I like the 18mm ER relief though not enough ER is a big problem with the 20 mm class. Look pretty good though well they fit in your pocket at all or is that a no go? Let's see my Leica Trinovids BC folded up are 1.5 x 2.6 x 3.8 which are a little smaller and they weigh 8.3 oz which are a little lighter. The Pentax are pretty small though. The Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elites are 3.5 x 4.25 which are a little smaller than the Pentax's and they are 12 oz. so the weight is close. The Custom Elites would probably have a little better image being a reverse porro but they are not waterproof. My Zeiss 8x32 FL's folded up are 3 x 5 x 4 inches so they are a little thicker but really not much bigger in footprint than the Pentax's but at 19.75 oz. quite a bit heavier than any of the compacts.
Dennis

[RJM]

Pentax has always made nice compacts. These use aspheric lenses for good edge sharpness too. As for fitting in your pocket, they fit in my cargo shorts or hiking vest. Too heavy to carry in a shirt pocket.

cheers,
Rick

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by RJM

I think all the 20mm class bins are too dim in all but the brightest light. I prefer the brighter ~25mm compacts and my current fav is the Pentax 9x28 DCF LV. Pretty good value now for $170 shipped from Adorama.

cheers,
Rick

I have these too. It is a very handy little binocular which will fit easily into a jacket pocket. It's easier to use with it's single hinge than a typical 8 x 20. (Except for the Zeiss 8 x 20 Victory which has an off set single hinge.) I wish it was a 7x though. It would be a lot more versatile, with a wider FOV and better DOF. That shouldn't be hard for Pentax to do. All they would have to do is change the Ocular's to 16mm.
Bob

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by ceasar

I have these too. It is a very handy little binocular which will fit easily into a jacket pocket. It's easier to use with it's single hinge than a typical 8 x 20. (Except for the Zeiss 8 x 20 Victory which has an off set single hinge.) I wish it was a 7x though. It would be a lot more versatile, with a wider FOV and better DOF. That shouldn't be hard for Pentax to do. All they would have to do is change the Ocular's to 16mm.
Bob

Yes I agree. Wider FOV, better DOF, brighter and being a compact which is hard to hold anyway because they are light easier to hold because of the lower magnification. So maybe the Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elite would be a better compromise. Smaller too and brighter yet because it is a porro. Wouldn't a Zeiss Conquest 8x30 T be close in size to the Pentax. The Zeiss's dimensions are 5.6 x 4.5 inches abd 17.5 oz. so not much bigger but you are kind of getting away from a compact size.

Dennis

[kristoffer]

Bigger then 20 mm roofs aint pocketable, imo. Then il rather bring my fullsize bin.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

Bigger then 20 mm roofs aint pocketable, imo. Then il rather bring my fullsize bin.

I guess it depends how big your pockets are. Cargo pants have BIG pockets right. What 8x20 do you prefer and why?

Dennis

[James Bean]

The Docter 8x22 is quite pleasant to use, nicer than the Steiner 8x22 Safari. The Zeiss
8x30 Conquest is fairly compact, but hardly pocketable. I've recently rediscovered lower magnification binoculars, in the shape of the Zeiss 6x18 B, which provides a big relaxing view, perhaps surprisingly for such a diminutive model, and brighter than the Docter 8x. The little Zeiss 6x is from the older (1990s) Design Selection, a single-hinge type. I don't think they make a current version, although there is the 6x monocular. For many years my favourite 'mini bin' was the Nikon 7x20 Travelite with sculpted finger grips, which was (to my eyes) an 'easier view' than its higher-magnification siblings. Another excellent 6x is the Pentax close-focus Papilio, not quite a 'mini' but just about pocketable. The acid test is "Which mini do I tend to pick up, to suit my comfort zone?" Answer: Zeiss 6x18...

[Alexis Powell]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

I know this has been talked about before but I have a pair of Leica 8x20 BC Trinovids and I like them but the eye relief is a little short. I really have to hold my eyes a little ways back from the eye cups to see the full FOV. I know 8x32's are way easier to use but I like the compacts for their SMALL size. Has anybody found an 8x20 that is not a pain to use? How about the Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elite E2? I know it isn't waterproof and it is a little bigger but does it perform better than the little 8x20's from Swarovski, Zeiss, and Nikon? What is your favorite 8x20?

Dennis

As a glasses wearer, I find the eye-relief of the Leica 8x20 Ultravid superior to that of the Trinovid. I also find the usable eye-relief of the Ultravid to be superior to the B&L 7x26 (in every incarnation that I've tried which includes all but the very latest). I find the Leica 8x20 Ultravid to be a joy in the hand when set up correctly (i.e. unfolded asymmetrically as I've described in past discussions on birdforum; used this way it is just as easy as a single-hinge model). In fact, in most situations where I carry compact/pocket binos, I find the Ultravid to be superior to the 7x26. They are far less obtrusive around the neck when juggling camera gear or similar because they are smaller, lighter, and they hang better (flatter against the body). Furthermore, I find the 7x26 awkward to use under the brim of a hat, and especially awkward/impossible to use while wearing a properly positioned bicycle helmet. I find the Ultravid optically superior to the Trinovid in every way, and that they work better than the most recent three incarnations of the 7x26 for butterflying because their close focus is shorter.

--AP

[kristoffer]

I prefer the Leica 8x20. The Nikon 8x20 focus wheel is a bit awkward in the front, where I have to use the wrong finger. And I prefer the view in the Leica rather then the Victory. I have the Trinovid, and I really enjoy them. However the Ultravids are probably only better, just like Alexis mentions. And I would like the Trinovids to be waterproof. I prefer to clean my optics under the tap with poring water. Other then that they are perfect compact bins, with optics that sure beat my Vipers, easily.

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

I guess it depends how big your pockets are. Cargo pants have BIG pockets right. What 8x20 do you prefer and why?

Dennis

[Sancho]

I like my new-ish Opticron DBA Oasis 8x21. Not quite as sharp, bright or small as the Leica Ultras I used to have, but very wide FOV (7.5 degrees), 19mm oculars and tons of eye-relief. Very, very good optics. Lovely rubber-armouring, feel like a pair of 8x32´s in the hand. Bigger than L/S/Z/N compacts, but smaller than reverse-porros. Pocketability depends on your pocket. A little bit "flary" in low sunlight. I banged on about them on another thread someplace.

[Kammerdiner]

I'll preface this by saying I wear glasses, because I think that makes the 8x20's rather fiddly.

I have the Leica 8x20 Ultravid and they do everything well, but that tiny exit pupil just makes them hard to center. After an afternoon with them, an 8x32 feels so much more relaxed, roomy, easy.

I'm not sure I'd buy an 8x20 again. I prefer an 8x25. It doesn't seem like much of a difference in exit pupil, but 8x25mm, for me at least, seems like the tipping point for ease of use. I bought an Olympus 8x25 Tracker reverse porro and frankly I generally like them better than the Leica. That Olympus is a real sleeper IMO. Optically as good as the Leica, but not WP. It does have a "resin" aspheric lens, and I wonder if it might turn yellow with age--time will tell. In the case it's only a little bigger than the Leica. Weighs about one ounce more.

I looked at the Pentax 9x28, but as others have said the FOV may feel narrow. It is a nice, bright bin for the price though. In the case (and probably out as well) it's too big for pockets.

The 8x20's are nice IF size/weight is absolutely critical, or if they're mainly used for a quick look. For heavy use, the next step up might please more. I'm a backpacker, and even then I'd rather have something bigger. I hope to do the 211 mile Muir trail through the Sierras next summer and I think I might take the Olympus.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Kammerdiner

That Olympus is a real sleeper IMO. Optically as good as the Leica, but not WP.

Is the Olympus that good, Kammerdiner? I´ve never seen a pair. Does it have reasonable FOV?

I have a pair of Opticron Taigas that are superb, but also only 6 degree FOV and not waterproof. Rubber-armoured, though. I think they are as sharp and bright as the Leica Ultravids too. With much better eye-relief.

I also recently got a pair of really nice Vortex Vanquish 8x26 that are as sharp (IMHO), wider FOV (about 6.6 degrees), a bit bulkier in the hand but really, really comfortable. Narrow oculars but great eye-relief. And they are waterproof/nitrogen-filled!

Both of these (the Taigas and the Vanquish) can be had for under 100 euro.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by Sancho

Is the Olympus that good, Kammerdiner? I´ve never seen a pair. Does it have reasonable FOV?

I have a pair of Opticron Taigas that are superb, but also only 6 degree FOV and not waterproof. Rubber-armoured, though. I think they are as sharp and bright as the Leica Ultravids too. With much better eye-relief.

I also recently got a pair of really nice Vortex Vanquish 8x26 that are as sharp (IMHO), wider FOV (about 6.6 degrees), a bit bulkier in the hand but really, really comfortable. Narrow oculars but great eye-relief. And they are waterproof/nitrogen-filled!

Both of these (the Taigas and the Vanquish) can be had for under 100 euro.

It seems like you all agree that the 8x20's are somewhat of a pain to use but anything too much bigger moves out of the realm of the compact. I have tried the Leica Ultravid 8x20 and did not find them to be that much better than the Leica 8x20 Trinovids. I thought the ER was short and I got alot of blackouts with them. I feel the double hinges on most of the 8x20'sare a pain also and it looks like only the Zeiss Victory doesn't have them. I have tried all of the 8x20's except for the Zeiss so guess I should move up a little in size. Maybe I will try the Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elites to see if they are any better. I think the Pentax's FOV is too small for me and any more I really prefer 7X or 8X magnifications. If I get a pair I will review them compared to what I have had so far.

Dennis

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by Sancho

Is the Olympus that good, Kammerdiner? I´ve never seen a pair. Does it have reasonable FOV?

I have a pair of Opticron Taigas that are superb, but also only 6 degree FOV and not waterproof. Rubber-armoured, though. I think they are as sharp and bright as the Leica Ultravids too. With much better eye-relief.

I also recently got a pair of really nice Vortex Vanquish 8x26 that are as sharp (IMHO), wider FOV (about 6.6 degrees), a bit bulkier in the hand but really, really comfortable. Narrow oculars but great eye-relief. And they are waterproof/nitrogen-filled!

Both of these (the Taigas and the Vanquish) can be had for under 100 euro.

I went over to Sportman's Warehouse and compared the Pentax 9x28 and the Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elite and really there was no comparison. The Bushnell is smaller, it's focus way superior being amazingly smooth. The Pentax focus is WAY to hard! In fact I could barely turn it. The eyecups on the Bushnell work like silk. The ER on the Pentax is better or longer. When it comes to optics the Bushnell really is way superior to the Pentax. It is brighter, has a larger FOV, sharper on-axis, way sharper at the edge and has superior contrast. The build quality on the little Bushnell's really is good. The Bushnell comes with nice straps and really a nice case. In fact the Bushnell's optics are like a little Nikon SE. Sharp as a tack right to the edge and bright as heck like most porro-prisms. For about the same money the Bushnell is really a better bargain although they are not waterproof like the Pentax's. It depends how important that is to you which you would choose.

Dennis

[RJM]

Hey any optics that can be called SE-like for half the money sounds like a winner. Too bad for me only the "economy" Bushnell's are imported into Japan.

FWIW, the Pentax AFoV is slightly wider than than the Bushnell, 50° vs 49° so perhaps that is why you see better edge sharpness in the Bushnell. But at $249 (+50% over the $170 Pentax on sale) your definition of "about the same money" seems stretched.

Considering compact porros I can try out here, I favor the Pentax Papilios. They are just too much fun! But Nikon Microns are cool too.

cheers,
Rick

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by RJM

Hey any optics that can be called SE-like for half the money sounds like a winner. Too bad for me only the "economy" Bushnell's are imported into Japan.

FWIW, the Pentax AFoV is slightly wider than than the Bushnell, 50° vs 49° so perhaps that is why you see better edge sharpness in the Bushnell. But at $249 (+50% over the $170 Pentax on sale) your definition of "about the same money" seems stretched.

Considering compact porros I can try out here, I favor the Pentax Papilios. They are just too much fun! But Nikon Microns are cool too.

cheers,
Rick

I bought a pair of the Bushnell 7x26 Elite E2 Custom Compacts on Amazon for $193.00. That's pretty close to the $170.00 price of the Pentax's. They are certainly worth the difference IMO. I will compare them to my Leica 8x20 Trinovids when I get them. I think I will still keep the Leica's because they are so darn cute and small. I believe the Bushnell's will have the optics advantage though. The Bushnells perform almost like a 8x32 and I guess they should at 7x26. I was very impressed with the quality of them though. I didn't know Bushnell made that nice of binoculars. Review will be coming so watch the thread.

Dennis

[Kammerdiner]

Yeah, I think the little Olympus is a great binocular. It's not waterproof, not fully armored, but the weight is just under 10oz and the size can't be beat. I've seen two samples and both were as sharp as a Leica 8x20 Ultravid. The FOV is narrow at 315' (Leica 341') but I honestly don't notice much difference. Others may be more sensitive to that. I spent ten years with an 8x42 that had 330' FOV, so maybe I'm just used to it. One sample of the Olympus had a loose center hinge that would have driven me nuts in the field. I returned that one.

In 2001 I bought a Minolta Activa 8x25 reverse porro and as it happens it's internally identical to the Olympus. That Minolta has travelled hundreds of miles in kayaks, backpacked all over, day hiked in the Alps, been to the top of Half Dome--you name it. It's a tough little binocular, and I bought the Olympus on a hunch that it was the same thing. The specs are identical. Sharpness identical. Internal construction identical. The coatings are different. The outer housing is different. The eyecups are improved, giving eyeglass wearers an extra mm or so of relief.

My only concern is with the "resin" element in the eyepiece. After all the years, the Minolta view is very yellow compared to the Olympus. I don't recall it being yellow when I bought it. Maybe it was, but I kinda doubt it. So maybe the Olympus, too, will yellow with age, or maybe they fixed that. Who knows?

Anyway, at $57 on Amazon it's a real treat. They may feel like plastic, but just look through them!

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

I bought a pair of the Bushnell 7x26 Elite E2 Custom Compacts on Amazon for $193.00. That's pretty close to the $170.00 price of the Pentax's. They are certainly worth the difference IMO. I will compare them to my Leica 8x20 Trinovids when I get them. I think I will still keep the Leica's because they are so darn cute and small. I believe the Bushnell's will have the optics advantage though. The Bushnells perform almost like a 8x32 and I guess they should at 7x26. I was very impressed with the quality of them though. I didn't know Bushnell made that nice of binoculars. Review will be coming so watch the thread.

Dennis

I received the Bushnell's 7x26 Custom Elites and I compared them to my Leica Trinovids 8x20's later in the day today and guess what the little Leica's won! Surprised me too. The Leica's were actually a little brighter and definitely sharper and I preferred the 8X view. ER was not any better on the Bushnell's. I definitely prefer the size of the Leica's. So I have tried the Leica 8x20 Ultravid and Trinovid and the Nikon 8x20 LX and Bushnell 7x26 Custom Elite E2 compacts. I definitely prefer the Leica's over the Nikon's and for me the Trinovids work as well or better than the Ultravid's and they are less expensive. I picked mine up new on E-bay for $350.00 shipped. I would recommend in conclusion for the best compact either of the Leica's 8x20's either the Trinovid or the Ultravid. Try them and see which one you prefer. A good price for the Trinovid is $350.00 and for the Ultravid is $450.00. Remenber the Ultravid is waterproof and the Trinovid is just water resistant. They are more difficult to use than an 8x32 but their compact size is very advantageous and they really do offer an impressive view for their size. ER is 14mm on the Trinovid and 16mm on the Ultravid. Not too different. FOV is pretty much the same on both which is about 341 feet(@1000 yds.). The Ultravids might be a tad bit brighter but I think the Trinovids are a better buy. The Trinovids feel better in my hands and they fold up smaller than the Ultravids and they are also lighter. Close focus is 7.2 feet on the Ultravid and 9.8 feet on the Trinovid. Advantage Ultravid.The Nikons have nice optics also but the Leicas are definitely cooler looking IMO.

Dennis

[benp1]

I have the 8x20 trinovids and they are wonderful

small, light and discreet are my priority. I take them when I walk the dog or stick them in my pack when I'm out for a walk. They've been to game reserves and up in the hills. They're bright, sharp, small and light, they bring me joy each time I look through them! I'm a huge fan

[Kammerdiner]

Dennis,

Wow, I'm a little surprised. I thought the Bushnell would come out on top there. I'm with you on the magnification question. 8x has always been as low as I want to go. It may be that the 8x/7x difference makes the Leica seem sharper. Many find the 10x25 Ultravid "sharper" than the 8x20, when it may have more to do with magnification. Brightness, too, surprises me. I thought the Bushnell's would win that one.

I plan on keeping my little Leica's but I'm still looking for a tight fitting case that allows them to be carried unfolded. The duel hinges flat out bug me, and leaving one side unfolded at all times means they don't fit the case either.

Anyway, thanks for the review.

Mark

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by Kammerdiner

Dennis,

Wow, I'm a little surprised. I thought the Bushnell would come out on top there. I'm with you on the magnification question. 8x has always been as low as I want to go. It may be that the 8x/7x difference makes the Leica seem sharper. Many find the 10x25 Ultravid "sharper" than the 8x20, when it may have more to do with magnification. Brightness, too, surprises me. I thought the Bushnell's would win that one.

I plan on keeping my little Leica's but I'm still looking for a tight fitting case that allows them to be carried unfolded. The duel hinges flat out bug me, and leaving one side unfolded at all times means they don't fit the case either.

Anyway, thanks for the review.

Mark

Surprised me too! It makes me appreciate the 8x20 Leica Trinovid's and Ultravids that much more. That's an interesting idea getting a case that would fit them unfolded. If you had them set for your IPD it would make using them alot easier. On the other hand you don't want a huge case either. I will look around and let you know if I find something. Yes, I am changing my mind about magnification. I am beginning to think 8X is about perfect for most binoculars. I tend to just like the view through an 8X anymore. Weird I don't know.

Dennis

[John Dracon]

Dennis -my wife swears by her 8x20 Lelca trinovids, and I understand why. Yet it and the Swaros and Zeiss compacts optically are not the equal IMO to the Nikon LX. But the Nikon has two major "flaws" which removes it from a serious comparison: double hinges and bizarre placement of the focusing mechanism. Why Nikon chose to make a very small glass that requires more fiddling around with double hinges and little finger focusing is one of those design mysteries which pop from time to time. The Nikon 10x25 is also cursed by the same design flaws. John

[Alexis Powell]

I'm mystified as to the depth of the dislike for double hinges. I could understand it if the hinges were floppy and didn't hold their setting, but that would be an unacceptable defect anyway. I could also understand the dislike if users were fixed on unfolding each side the exact same amount due to some sort of symmetry-favoring aesthetic judgment. I have both the single hinge Zeiss 8x20 Victory and the double hinge Leica 8x20 Ultravid. I find the latter just as easy to set up as the former, and ergonomically superior due to its larger focus knob. As a right-handed focuser, I unfold the right side of the Ultravid all the way (unlike the Zeiss Classic and some other pocket roofs, it has a stop that limits how far it extends). The right side then fits securely in the palm of my right hand (same fit as the Zeiss Victory), and my index finger falls naturally over the focus knob (unlike if the bino were unfolded symmetrically). I then unfold the left side enough to get the IPD just right. It is _just as easy_ as setting up the Zeiss Victory.

--AP