[John B (not the sloop)]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse....

http://news.scotsman.com/nature/New-...rds.5791915.jp

[hampers]

Originally Posted by John B (not the sloop)

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse....

http://news.scotsman.com/nature/New-...rds.5791915.jp

That is serious bad news if the legislation is introduced and certainly one for the RSPB, SNH and all other conservation bodies to lobby, as they will, extremely strongly against. I could make all sorts of cynical comments about legislation such as this being introduced, as many of us can, but will refain. Suffice to say that if it came to a vote how many of the eligible people would let personal views prevail rather than those of their constituents.

Phil

[Kits]

"Anyone who rears livestock knows how traumatic it is to lose animals in their care particularly when they've done everything in their power to protect them," he said.

How touching. Until one remembers that the livestock in question is being raised to be killed for sport. Double standards, anyone?

[Apodemus]

Yes, there must be countless tears shed on a shoot day. Poor dears, to get so attached to 10,000 pheasants and then have to lose them all like that.

[jacana]

Originally Posted by Kits

"Anyone who rears livestock knows how traumatic it is to lose animals in their care particularly when they've done everything in their power to protect them," he said.

How touching. Until one remembers that the livestock in question is being raised to be killed for sport. Double standards, anyone?

That's a non-argument. Would you say a farmer was using double standards if he was losing cattle to a disease before he could take them to slaughter?

The vast majority of pheasants shot are used in some form afterwards so it's not just people killing for the "fun of it". Why should it matter if some people enjoy shooting at the same time?

[redshank2]

Originally Posted by jacana

The vast majority of pheasants shot are used in some form afterwards so it's not just people killing for the "fun of it". Why should it matter if some people enjoy shooting at the same time?

I would say the distinction is that if we wanted to rear phesants specificlly for the table this would be most easily and probably economically done by mimicking chicken rearing and doing this in poultry sheds. There would then be no losses to predators, bad weather or birds simply wondering off the shoot onto neighbouring land.

The fact that the shot pheasants may sold on to be eaten later is beside the point since the real money in the business is in people paying for the privilege of shooting them. Further profit is a bonus.

This is not the same as farming livestock (or even chickens) for meat where slaughter is done in a factory setting and actually costs the farmer money rather than generating it, with profits coming form the meat sales alone.

Tom

[jacana]

Originally Posted by redshank2

I would say the distinction is that if we wanted to rear phesants specificlly for the table this would be most easily and probably economically done by mimicking chicken rearing and doing this in poultry sheds. There would then be no losses to predators, bad weather or birds simply wondering off the shoot onto neighbouring land.
Tom

So you'd rather see thousands of birds couped up in cramped sheds than in the wild where they have some form of "quality of life".

Originally Posted by redshank2

The fact that the shot pheasants may sold on to be eaten later is beside the point since the real money in the business is in people paying for the privilege of shooting them. Further profit is a bonus.

This is not the same as farming livestock (or even chickens) for meat where slaughter is done in a factory setting and actually costs the farmer money rather than generating it, with profits coming form the meat sales alone.

and that money in turn trickles down to the local community, I can earn £25 (£30 if i have a dog) a day working as a beater or picking-up.

The real problem however is that with any form of monoculture, if you have high densities of edible, easy to reach foodstuffs, you are going to have high densities of predators and "pests". If we've made artificially high amounts of prey, then it's our responsibility to control the artificially high numbers of predators, it's a hard truth to swallow, I don't like it and i'd rather see a different way, but I can't see one.

[liverpool_bob]

Originally Posted by jacana

The vast majority of pheasants shot are used in some form afterwards

Can that statement be backed up? I'm doubtful. Surely there's only a small market for them... who's going to buy several hundred dead pheasants in one go?

[Kits]

Originally Posted by jacana

That's a non-argument. Would you say a farmer was using double standards if he was losing cattle to a disease before he could take them to slaughter?

The vast majority of pheasants shot are used in some form afterwards so it's not just people killing for the "fun of it". Why should it matter if some people enjoy shooting at the same time?

A beef farmer farms to provide meat.

A pheasant shoot is there to provide sport.

Therein lies the difference.

[paul Robinson]

The real problem however is that with any form of monoculture, if you have high densities of edible, easy to reach foodstuffs, you are going to have high densities of predators and "pests". If we've made artificially high amounts of prey, then it's our responsibility to control the artificially high numbers of predators, it's a hard truth to swallow, I don't like it and i'd rather see a different way, but I can't see one.

The main "predator" of young pheasants is cars squashing them on the road, no? Maybe gamekeepers could wear high vis jackets and get themselves some lollipops to help the poor things across the road? Maybe they could set up giant snares on well used "runs" used by Mondeo drivers?? I can see it now - Mondeos swinging from beech trees in an estate and the local gamekeeper sayin "nuthin' to do with me mate"...

Paul

[StonedCurlew]

Originally Posted by jacana

The real problem however is that with any form of monoculture, if you have high densities of edible, easy to reach foodstuffs, you are going to have high densities of predators and "pests". If we've made artificially high amounts of prey, then it's our responsibility to control the artificially high numbers of predators, it's a hard truth to swallow, I don't like it and i'd rather see a different way, but I can't see one.

So in this country we put down thousand upon thousand of pheasant. In late summer / early autumn they are the commonest bird in the UK. This is absolutely shocking considering they are not native. We are then surprised when this huge amount of biomass has an effect on the ecosystem. It is then it is 'our responsibility' to control predators?

Should we kill Golden Eagles because they take lambs? Should we kill wintering geese because they eat crops? No. So why should we kill buzzards because they take the odd pheasant poult (and kill many fewer than foxes and cars)?

I agree that shooting does generate money for the rural community, and in fact most pheasants killed are used. Management for shooting also benefits wildlife, particularly game cover strips which can provide a source of winter food for farmland passerines. However, I believe that when you are putting down thousands of birds you have to accept that some will be lost to predators. This does not justify a gamekeeper killing buzzards!

[John B (not the sloop)]

"Anyone who rears livestock knows how traumatic it is to lose animals in their care particularly when they've done everything in their power to protect them,"

Poor guy must become a total basket case every Autumn when the twelve bores start barking then......

Flooding the countryside with semi-domesticated birds simply as moving targets seems shoddy enough human behaviour to me, but when it also requires native wildlife to be casually removed too then "despicable" becomes a more appropriate adjective.

I don't have a problem with sustainable hunting of certain species for food (and quite enjoy a plump pheasant in a casserole) but where ecosystems have to be significantly disrupted then "sustainable" doesn't apply.

[malgos]

Hi
Pheasant rearing and shooting is really big buisness in rural ares and injects huge sums of money into the local economies in all manner of diverse wayssand in many instances is the major source of income for many landowners particularly the big Scottish estates.
Whatever anyone thinks raptors are going to be killed if the gamekeepers wish to do so,there are too many cases of illegal poisoning carried out on almost a daily basis.
The vast tracts of some of these estates are too big to police and so it is impossible to monitor the situation The only way forward is to try and educate people,we have 8-10 year old children whose fathers work on these estates thinking it is perfectly acceptable to poison raptors. It is very difficult to eradicate this ingrained viewpoint.
Would not issuing licenses to shoot Buzzards under very strict controls save them from a horrible death due to poisoning?
Malcolm

[Apodemus]

Originally Posted by liverpool_bob

Can that statement be backed up? I'm doubtful. Surely there's only a small market for them... who's going to buy several hundred dead pheasants in one go?

Game dealers.

[liverpool_bob]

Originally Posted by Apodemus

Game dealers.

After a bit of searching around it's clear there's a dearth of reliable information, but even so it seems the number of birds released is likely low tens of million annually. Many of these die before the shoot (roads, disease etc.) and maybe between 10-30% are sold for the table (intuitively that sounds like too many to me, but). That would still leave millions of birds being shot by guests of corporate hospitality and then buried. I suspect many people have objections to that aspect of the business, that's for them to decide.

However back to the original point - the game industry are happy to make assertions about buzzards guzzling pheasants like they're going out of fashion but seem awfully shy about producing facts. So let's have some facts - let everyone see what actually happens in the pheasant farming business and see if it justifies controlling Buzzards. Maybe it does but just saying 'trust us, we know best, the buzzards done bad' isn't good enough.

[StonedCurlew]

Originally Posted by malgos

Would not issuing licenses to shoot Buzzards under very strict controls save them from a horrible death due to poisoning?

I very much doubt it and this would justify the killing of birds of prey. Bird of prey persecution is very widespread and will continue to be so, license or no license.

[Amarillo]

Originally Posted by StonedCurlew

So in this country we put down thousand upon thousand of pheasant. In late summer / early autumn they are the commonest bird in the UK. This is absolutely shocking considering they are not native. We are then surprised when this huge amount of biomass has an effect on the ecosystem.

I agree, if the number of non-native pheasants released is such that the number of predators is increasing there is only one sensible solution...

When you think about it, its amazing how accepted this unnatural practise has become

[birdboybowley]

Originally Posted by jacana

..I can earn £25 (£30 if i have a dog) a day working as a beater or picking-up..

Wouldn't get me out of bed for that....!!!!

[TheSeagull]

Disgusting news. So you can get a licence to kill something that could harm something you are about to kill anyway? I wish the whole shooting practise would just stop.

[Ken Hall]

Pheasant rearing and shooting is really big buisness in rural ares and injects huge sums of money into the local economies in all manner of diverse ways and in many instances is the major source of income for many landowners particularly the big Scottish estates.

I'd be interested to know what the actual figures are for this. What is your source for your claim? I'd like to read more about it for myself.

[redshank2]

Originally Posted by jacana

So you'd rather see thousands of birds couped up in cramped sheds than in the wild where they have some form of "quality of life".

With respect you are misunderstanding my post if you think that I said is what I would prefer: In fact I made no reference to which method of rearing I think would be best for the welfare of the birds.

I merely observed that from an economic viewpoint if meat production were the sole aim then this would be a more economical method.

In fact I am ambivalent about shooting. I come from an area of gloucestershire with many shoots and have seen some of the effects both good and bad.

At best are some shoots on arable land which support locally rare farmland birds not otherwise found in my area such as Tree Sparrow (probably chiefly by virtue of set-aside and headlands left unplowed for game cover since these are species likely to be unaffected by predator control).

At worst a number of shots where I have seen 'vermin' that have been shot and the corpses nailed to trees or found illegal traps; these would include one wood where greenfinches had been shot and placed in traps presumably as bait for other birds.

I do not object to well regulated shoots but despise the sometimes illegal persecution of supposed 'vermin' that often accompanies them. What I most object to is hypocrisy. Be honest about what hunting is about. I have no problem with someone saying they get a thrill from hunting; I get a thrill from finding birds that is probably similar - I just don't feel the need to kill.

If you wish to argue about the virtues of hunting be honest about what is being done.

Tom

[Stevie babe]

Originally Posted by malgos

Hi
Pheasant rearing and shooting is really big buisness in rural ares and injects huge sums of money into the local economies in all manner of diverse wayssand in many instances is the major source of income for many landowners particularly the big Scottish estates.
Whatever anyone thinks raptors are going to be killed if the gamekeepers wish to do so,there are too many cases of illegal poisoning carried out on almost a daily basis.
The vast tracts of some of these estates are too big to police and so it is impossible to monitor the situation The only way forward is to try and educate people,we have 8-10 year old children whose fathers work on these estates thinking it is perfectly acceptable to poison raptors. It is very difficult to eradicate this ingrained viewpoint.
Would not issuing licenses to shoot Buzzards under very strict controls save them from a horrible death due to poisoning?
Malcolm

What a load of hog wash. As you state, and most birders know, poisoning and illegal trapping will still continue because in the mind of of a number of game keepers and followers of kill sports there will be no satisfaction until all predators of their stock are gone. Fortunately there are some who do not follow that path but are, regrettably, tainted with that brush.

[Robert L Jarvis]

They have done for Hen Harriers, now Buzzards where will it stop? Do you honestly believe these sporting estates support thousands of jobs, utter tosh. It is all about a few very rich satisfying their kill craze.

[malgos]

Originally Posted by Robert L Jarvis

They have done for Hen Harriers, now Buzzards where will it stop? Do you honestly believe these sporting estates support thousands of jobs, utter tosh. It is all about a few very rich satisfying their kill craze.

I did,nt say they support thousands of jobs I said they bring huge sums of money into the Scottish economy in lots of diverse ways. I,m playing the Devils Advocate here and trying to point out the thought pattern of many of these Estates.I live between two shooting estates and see on a daily basis the running of these estates. Pheasants don,t get buried they are sold to game dealers.The raptor situation is undoubtdley a very emotional one and having spoken to Keepers I really don,t know how to change there mentality.
I don,t agree with pheasant shooting but its never going to be banned and its a very difficult situation to police.
Malcolm

[malgos]

Originally Posted by Robert L Jarvis

They have done for Hen Harriers, now Buzzards where will it stop? Do you honestly believe these sporting estates support thousands of jobs, utter tosh. It is all about a few very rich satisfying their kill craze.

I did,nt say they support thousands of jobs I said they bring huge sums of money into the Scottish economy in lots of diverse ways. I,m playing the Devils Advocate here and trying to point out the thought pattern of many of these Estates.I live between two shooting estates and see on a daily basis the running of these estates. Pheasants don,t get buried they are sold to game dealers.The raptor situation is undoubtdley a very emotional one and having spoken to Keepers I really don,t know how to change there mentality.
I don,t agree with pheasant shooting but its never going to be banned and its a very difficult situation to police.
Malcolm