[The Kingfisher]

I've tried a number of binoculars (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Steiner, Kowa, Kamakura, Nikon, Meopta) in the last week and think Kowa Prominar 8.5x44 XD has the best optics of all. This is because the color is neutral and that it handle chromatic aberration in a very good way. Unfortunately it weighs a lot ..

However, I prioritize good optics in front of a lighter design. But the question is..do you have any tips for avoiding neck pain after a day of bird watching with a heavy pair of binoculars?

[Kevin Purcell]

Use a harness not a neck strap. No more neck pain!

Of course the downside is perhaps the geeky look (but then again I don't care) and the difficultly in shedding or adding layers. If it's not too cold then I mitigate that by wearing the harness under my jacket with the jacket a little open (and you can fully open the jacket to cool off). Not an option in perhaps for a Swedish winter (but then again keeping wrapped up might be the right idea).

[nigel_b]

You're right, heavy glasses are a pain in the neck. I've made an extra-wide leather strap and try to wear outer clothes with thick collars to put the strap behind, to give my neck some padding.

My best pair are Nikon HGs (the older, heavyweight ones) and on a walk of anything more than a couple of hours I substitute them for a lighter pair. The weight is a real problem.

[kristoffer]

I use OP/Techs straps, they reduce a lot of weight. However a full day of birding can cause some strain anyway if the bin is heavy. So just like Kevin suggests, buy a harness. They really help and if you worry about looking cool this is probably the wrong hobby The only issue with the harness is "difficultly in shedding or adding layers" like Kevin said, not as easy to take on and off. But with that Kowa the benefits of a harness definitly outweights the cons. A harness can be bought cheap on ebay, I did that.

[NoSpringChicken]

It might not apply in your case Kingfisher but if you wear a backpack when you are birding it is worth attaching the binocular strap to the pack. My partner's pack has a carrying handle at the top and I use a simple webbing strap with cam fasteners to attach the binocular strap to this. She used to get neck pain from her binoculars but this is no longer a problem. I know some people have substituted the binocular strap for two separate short pieces with quick fix connectors which attach to the backpack's shoulder straps. As I say, this is only applicable if you carry a pack but it does work.

Ron

[The Kingfisher]

Thanks for all your help!

I'll definitely take a look at a harness. Perhaps this might be the solution to the problem. Yesterday I tried the "backpack-thing" with my light Nikon 8x32 SE and it really seemed to reduce the wight on it. Usually I use a backpack, but as soon as I stand still for a long while at the same place I usually take it off. This is because the backpack itself weighs a bit and can give tired shoulders. I believe in getting a harness, and to take off the binocular when there is a possibility. For example, during transport by car between two different bird habitats.

[JohnJos]

I carry my Zeiss FL bins using a bandoleer strap across my chest. It still puts a little pressure on my neck but most is on my shoulder. I modified a LowePro camera strap for the purpose removing the shoulder pad. This was necessary so that the strap could easily slide on my clothing as I bring the bin from my side up to my eyes. So it's just 1" wide webbing now. It can get a bit annoying in the summer because the edge of the webbing can irritate my neck a little. But it's the best solution for me. Upstrap makes a bandoleer strap for cameras and binoculars.

[Tero]

Yes :-)

[ronh]

A bandolier style strap like John described solved it for me with my 31-oz Leica Trinovid. It is much more comfortable than having the weight on the back of the neck, and much less a contraption than a harness. Simple nylon webbing that slides easily against the clothing is the ticket, 1.5" wide in my case.

I adjusted the length so that the front of the binocular hung just below belt level. When I take a big step upward, my thigh hits it a little bit, but any shorter, and there's not enough slack when I bring it up to my face.

Necks just aren't made for this! I'm now using my 27-oz FL on a nice neck strap adjusted very short to minimize the binocular swinging around and banging my chest. It is a little quicker to get to when I see a bird, but it still doesn't exactly feel great, scrapes my nose when I put it on, and pulls my hat off when I take it off. I will probably go back to the bandolier strap at some point, but the Zeiss's greater length will make it a little more awkward than for the very compact Leica.

Pancho Villa did not wear his straps of bullets around the back of his neck either, and he was one cool dude, his idiotic and murderous raid on Columbus, NM, excepted.
Ron

[BinoBoy]

Another option is a belt pack type of camera bag. The Lowepro Orion Mini works great for this. With all the dividers removed, it holds most roofs sideways. The sideways carry makes them easy to remove from the case. You just remove the neckstrap. If you want you can add a wriststrap like the one Op/Tech makes. This is also a good way to carry two pairs of bins. You can wear a light weight, low power bin like an 8x32 around your neck and then a heavier, higher power pair in the belt pack.

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by ronh

A bandolier style strap like John described solved it for me with my 31-oz Leica Trinovid. It is much more comfortable than having the weight on the back of the neck, and much less a contraption than a harness. Simple nylon webbing that slides easily against the clothing is the ticket, 1.5" wide in my case.

I adjusted the length so that the front of the binocular hung just below belt level. When I take a big step upward, my thigh hits it a little bit, but any shorter, and there's not enough slack when I bring it up to my face.

Necks just aren't made for this! I'm now using my 27-oz FL on a nice neck strap adjusted very short to minimize the binocular swinging around and banging my chest. It is a little quicker to get to when I see a bird, but it still doesn't exactly feel great, scrapes my nose when I put it on, and pulls my hat off when I take it off. I will probably go back to the bandolier strap at some point, but the Zeiss's greater length will make it a little more awkward than for the very compact Leica.

Pancho Villa did not wear his straps of bullets around the back of his neck either, and he was one cool dude, his idiotic and murderous raid on Columbus, NM, excepted.
Ron

I agree Ron, the human neck was not meant to take a heavy weight pushing down on it (I don't know how Flava Flav does it :-)

In case that was lost in translation across the pond, here he is:

http://www.marclamonthill.com/mlhblo...ava-flav.0.jpg

The wide cloth strap on my 804 Audubon is long enough to use bandolier style, so that helps with the 29 oz. weight, which in the hand doesn't feel that heavy since the weight is well distributed.

However, when hung around the neck, it can not only be a pain in the neck, but since the neck bone's connected to the spine bones and the spine bone's connected to tail bone, it's also pain in the ass. :-)

Plus, the old gray-haired neck ain't what it used to be many long years ago.

There was a time when a narrow EO neoprene strap was good enough to handle the 8x32 LX (not a really heavy bin except for some people I know - 25.4 oz. - but being small, the weight is concentrated).

So I switched to a wide nylon Nikon strap that Steve (mooreorless) gave me, and that helped a lot (the original straps that come with the EII and SE are the pits, IMO).

I now use the wide strap on my 8x32 SE, because with the hard rubber barrel extensions, it weighs as much as the LX.

A binoharness would be the best solution, but not only does it look geeky but it would get in the way of my pen and calculator pocket protector. :-)

[kristoffer]

http://www.amazon.com/37012-Strap-Ca...8129123&sr=1-1

This strap is what I use, it does remove alot of strain from my neck.

[KorHaan]

My favorite brick is the 1255 gram Canon 18x50 IS; I've tried all of the above mentioned methods, and found the backpack method the best solution. Bought a S-shaped carabine hook in a hardware store, attached it to the handle on top of the backpack and hook up my neckstrap to the other end of the S-hook.
With just the right weight the backpack works as a contraweight, pulling the neckstrap down away from my neck, to halfway my back. Too much weight is not good, too tiresome on the shoulders. So I normally only pack a walkstool and a fieldguide, this suffices. A good reason to actually take a fieldguide with you, it's dead weight until you need it!
The next best thing is a really good elastic neck strap, not the ones of Op/Tech, that are only slightly elastic in the wrong place, the neoprene neckpad. The entire length of the strap should be more than slightly elastic, this helps greatly to reduce the neck pain.
Downside is the bouncing movement of the bins up and down. You should avoid running or you'll get knocked out by your own device.
I suppose with a 1.2 kilogram pair of bins there is no easy solution to the problem.
On a different thread long ago I introduced my self-invented bino-yoke, made of a coathanger (!), which - if well designed at least - should be comparable with the backpack-straps connected with the bins' two short straps. But without the backpack.
Though the bino-yoke spread the weight to the shoulders very comfortably, I've abandoned it because the neck part was ill-designed: curved rigid wood.
A nice leather well-padded yoke might be the ultimate solution.

Kind regards,

Ronald

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by KorHaan

My favorite brick is the 1255 gram Canon 18x50 IS; I've tried all of the above mentioned methods, and found the backpack method the best solution. Bought a S-shaped carabine hook in a hardware store, attached it to the handle on top of the backpack and hook up my neckstrap to the other end of the S-hook.
With just the right weight the backpack works as a contraweight, pulling the neckstrap down away from my neck, to halfway my back. Too much weight is not good, too tiresome on the shoulders. So I normally only pack a walkstool and a fieldguide, this suffices. A good reason to actually take a fieldguide with you, it's dead weight until you need it!
The next best thing is a really good elastic neck strap, not the ones of Op/Tech, that are only slightly elastic in the wrong place, the neoprene neckpad. The entire length of the strap should be more than slightly elastic, this helps greatly to reduce the neck pain.
Downside is the bouncing movement of the bins up and down. You should avoid running or you'll get knocked out by your own device.
I suppose with a 1.2 kilogram pair of bins there is no easy solution to the problem.
On a different thread long ago I introduced my self-invented bino-yoke, made of a coathanger (!), which - if well designed at least - should be comparable with the backpack-straps connected with the bins' two short straps. But without the backpack.
Though the bino-yoke spread the weight to the shoulders very comfortably, I've abandoned it because the neck part was ill-designed: curved rigid wood.
A nice leather well-padded yoke might be the ultimate solution.

Kind regards,

Ronald

Ronald,

Thanks for that idea. It's certainly more manly than using a "cross your heart" binoharness manzier. :-)

Unfortunately, I have a bad back (injured by a cowardly Romulan who struck me from behind with a batliff), so the backpack counterweight would probably feel worse than a wide, neoprene strap.

I have Eagle Optics neoprene straps (yes, they do make the bins bounce more), which work to a point beyond which the narrow strap causes subluxations. It needs to be wider.

The best strap for me would be a wide neoprene strap that is long enough to be used Bandolero style. I have yet to find one.

But by far the best solution for carrying heavy bins can be found below (hear me now, believe me later :-):

http://whatthehellis.files.wordpress...ilding-pic.jpg

[Fozzybear]

My 8x42's are only around 750g so not that bad, I can walk around with those all day fine. It's when I add my DSLR and telephoto (Nikon D300 and Nikon 70-300mm VR or 300mm f/4 prime) that I can get a bit sore-necked at the end of the day, those add around 2kg, although I have them on a stretchy Op-Tech pro strap that reduces the load and takes out the sudden jolts, plus I add a little support to the camera with my hands on and off as I walk around. If I have the prime lens fitted I support that with my hands most of the time as that is really heavy and I don't want that weight on my neck, and I don't want to stress the lens plate of the camera either!

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by The Kingfisher

I've tried a number of binoculars (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Steiner, Kowa, Kamakura, Nikon, Meopta) in the last week and think Kowa Prominar 8.5x44 XD has the best optics of all. This is because the color is neutral and that it handle chromatic aberration in a very good way. Unfortunately it weighs a lot ..

However, I prioritize good optics in front of a lighter design. But the question is..do you have any tips for avoiding neck pain after a day of bird watching with a heavy pair of binoculars?

I can't stand heavy binoculars any more and I consider heavy over 22 oz. That's why I carry a Zeiss 8x32 FL(20 oz) or my Nikon Monarch's(21 oz) or my Zeiss 8x20 Victories(8 oz). No big heavy heavy Swarovski's 8.5 x42 anymore. When you carry them all day to me they REALLY become uncomfortable! I usually take my Zeiss 8x32 FL's when I go to our zoo here in Denver but last week I took my new Zeiss 8x20 Victories and I couldn't believe how much more comfortable they were than even the sub 20 oz. Zeiss 8x32 fl's. With the 8x32's I was constantly adjusting the strap on my neck because they were uncomfortable. The baby Zeiss 8x20's I hardly noticed I even HAD them around my neck. Remarkable difference! They worked fine for the zoo too. Optically not giving up alot to the 8x32's. The only 8x42 I will carry all day is the Nikon Monarch because it is as light as most 8x32's. I will not carry an alpha 8x42 anymore. There is not that much of an optical advantage. I will put my Zeiss 8x32 FL's up to your Kowa's anyday and I will bet you will not notice much optical difference and you will really appreciate the difference in weight. To me weight is a prioity!

[Malloot]

I use these and they are perfect!!

http://optechusa.com/product/detail/...&CATEGORY_ID=4

Use webbing version, not the elastic version to prevent it from annoying dangling.

[KorHaan]

Originally Posted by Malloot

I use these and they are perfect!!

http://optechusa.com/product/detail/...&CATEGORY_ID=4

Use webbing version, not the elastic version to prevent it from annoying dangling.

Quite nice.

As long as the strap connection part on the back doesn't creep up, like in all three bino harnesses I owned. Then you have it all in your neck again, it bugs me, really.
It may be a good thing to buy an elastic bino harness plus an Op/Tech wide neoprene strap, and combine the two: cut the harness so that the two elastic straps remain, throw the rest away, cut the strap parts off the neoprene neckstrap of the Op/Tech strap and throw them away, so you only have the wide neoprene neckpart of the Op/Tech, then connect the elastic harness straps to the Op/Tech neoprene neckpart and you'll have a wide, elastic neckstrap.

Some drastic problems ask for drastic solutions.

Kind regards,

Ronald

[KorHaan]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

I can't stand heavy binoculars any more and I consider heavy over 22 oz. That's why I carry a Zeiss 8x32 FL(20 oz) or my Nikon Monarch's(21 oz) or my Zeiss 8x20 Victories(8 oz). No big heavy heavy Swarovski's 8.5 x42 anymore. When you carry them all day to me they REALLY become uncomfortable! I usually take my Zeiss 8x32 FL's when I go to our zoo here in Denver but last week I took my new Zeiss 8x20 Victories and I couldn't believe how much more comfortable they were than even the sub 20 oz. Zeiss 8x32 fl's. With the 8x32's I was constantly adjusting the strap on my neck because they were uncomfortable. The baby Zeiss 8x20's I hardly noticed I even HAD them around my neck. Remarkable difference! They worked fine for the zoo too. Optically not giving up alot to the 8x32's. The only 8x42 I will carry all day is the Nikon Monarch because it is as light as most 8x32's. I will not carry an alpha 8x42 anymore. There is not that much of an optical advantage. I will put my Zeiss 8x32 FL's up to your Kowa's anyday and I will bet you will not notice much optical difference and you will really appreciate the difference in weight. To me weight is a prioity!

Hi Dennis,

I agree that really comfy bins are those that weigh less than 300 grams.
I once owned a Pentax 10x28 of 450 grams, even this was clearly noticeable around the neck.
I think that if you have a bino of more than 1000 grams it doesn't matter anymore, as long as you feel happy with them like I do with my 18x mag.

Kind regards,

Ronald

[KorHaan]

Originally Posted by brocknroller

Ronald,

Thanks for that idea. It's certainly more manly than using a "cross your heart" binoharness manzier. :-)

Unfortunately, I have a bad back (injured by a cowardly Romulan who struck me from behind with a batliff), so the backpack counterweight would probably feel worse than a wide, neoprene strap.

I have Eagle Optics neoprene straps (yes, they do make the bins bounce more), which work to a point beyond which the narrow strap causes subluxations. It needs to be wider.

The best strap for me would be a wide neoprene strap that is long enough to be used Bandolero style. I have yet to find one.

But by far the best solution for carrying heavy bins can be found below (hear me now, believe me later :-):

http://whatthehellis.files.wordpress...ilding-pic.jpg

LOL!

I'll go on steroids right away!

I don't like the man-bra's either, though they can be OK as long as you can put up with the hassle of taking them off/putting them on.

Long wide neoprene straps can be made DIY to use bandoleer style, I tried that, but the wide neoprene neckpart on the back kinda "sticks" to your coat so it's too much effort to quickly raise the bins to your eyes.
Why don't you try two straps attached to the bins, one wide short one for use around the neck, and a "slippery" long one when you want the bandoleer method?

Just an idea.

Kind regards,

Ronald

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by KorHaan

LOL!

I'll go on steroids right away!

I don't like the man-bra's either, though they can be OK as long as you can put up with the hassle of taking them off/putting them on.

Long wide neoprene straps can be made DIY to use bandoleer style, I tried that, but the wide neoprene neckpart on the back kinda "sticks" to your coat so it's too much effort to quickly raise the bins to your eyes.
Why don't you try two straps attached to the bins, one wide short one for use around the neck, and a "slippery" long one when you want the bandoleer method?

Just an idea.

Kind regards,

Ronald

It's true what you said. When I use straps with a wide cushioned neck pad bandolier style, the pad will stick to my neck and make it hard to get the bins to my eyes quickly. In fact some types have small rubber "feet" on the back of the pad to assure that the pad doesn't slide around your neck.

In addition, I have long arms so I have to stick my right elbow under the strap so I can pull the bins up to my face.

For stationary birds, this doesn't present a problem but for birds in flight (or flighty birds), I sometimes miss them or they get too far away to see much detail by the time I'm set.

This happened last week when I was trying to look at a circling turkey vulture.

By the time I had gotten my arm out from underneath the strap and the bins up to my eyes, he spotted me and flew away into the nearby trees and perched on a branch and was too far away to get a good look.

Fortunately, his mate, who was circling a bit farther away, came overhead and I got a good look at her/him.

A face only a mother could love :-):

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news...og/vulture.jpg

I couldn't see the face as well as that photo from where I was and got a sudden "hankering" for a higher power bin (I picked up the word "hanker" from my human friend Marie, who was born and breed in these parts).

Of course, then you have the old shakes issue and the small exit pupil IS bins as an alternative.

I don't like looking one-eyed-jack through a spotting scope, so a higher power bin would be the only acceptable alternative, and 10x wouldn't make much difference since the 804 Audubon offers the same resolution with less shakes.

To keep the exit pupil at least 4mm, I would need a 15x60, and then I'd have to go "geek" for sure.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143528949

[ronh]

Patrick,
All the strap discussion may have distracted attention from your comment at the beginning, "I've tried a number of binoculars (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Steiner, Kowa, Kamakura, Nikon, Meopta) in the last week and think Kowa Prominar 8.5x44 XD has the best optics of all." What a week you had, and what an interesting conclusion.

This Kowa has been complained about some here for its weight, it's perfect rectilearity/"rolling globe effect", and some focus smoothness quibbles. But the basic optical quality seems to wow everybody. Holger Merlitz, in every one of his many reviews, says some kind of boilerplate statement like "all properly made binoculars appear sharp at the center of the image", except for his review of the Prominar, which really got his attention in this very important respect.

I'd love to try one. If you end up getting one, Patrick, tell us all about it.
Ron

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by ronh

Patrick,
All the strap discussion may have distracted attention from your comment at the beginning, "I've tried a number of binoculars (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Steiner, Kowa, Kamakura, Nikon, Meopta) in the last week and think Kowa Prominar 8.5x44 XD has the best optics of all." What a week you had, and what an interesting conclusion.

This Kowa has been complained about some here for its weight, it's perfect rectilearity/"rolling globe effect", and some focus smoothness quibbles. But the basic optical quality seems to wow everybody. Holger Merlitz, in every one of his many reviews, says some kind of boilerplate statement like "all properly made binoculars appear sharp at the center of the image", except for his review of the Prominar, which really got his attention in this very important respect.

I'd love to try one. If you end up getting one, Patrick, tell us all about it.
Ron

Ron,

This is true with Holger, he usually says the same thing about every bin, and that's in large part, because as an amateur astronomer, as evidenced by the fact that when he ranks "image sharpness" at the end of his reviews what he's actually ranking is the sharpness of the image at the bin's edges.

To the best of my recollection, the Kowa was the first ED birding bin he has reviewed.

I remember how impressed I was with the first ED bin I bought. I've tried about half a dozen now, and while I'm still impressed with the view, it's not the same "Wow! moment" as the first time.

As more and more bins employ the use of extra low dispersion glasses, something else (field flatteners?) will be what impresses people.

"Wow! Look at the sharp edges on this EL".
"I guess you never looked through an SE before, eh?" :-)

With the Zen Ray 7x36 Holger said:
"The contrast and sharpness are excellent in the central region of the image, a tad superior even to the Docter's, and on a same level with the Nikon EII."

I have the EIIs and a good specimen is about as sharp as a bin can get, on par with my SE, so that's high praises for the Zens, concluding in his summary that:

"This is a quality binocular, perhaps being the best one among those 'Made in China' glasses which I have tested so far..."

Of course, a lot of the article was about the much talked about stray light issue, which has now been fixed with a baffle.

Considering the Genesis costs $1,200 and the 7x36 he had cost $400 - a difference of $800 - you could buy three Zen Rays for the price of a Kowa, so it darn well better be impressive!

For me, the "rolling ball effect" is the deal breaker with the Kowa.

If you see it (not all people see "rolling ball" or are bothered by it), but if you can see and it doesn't "disappear" after a few days, it can be very distracting and take away from the natural view that most birders seem to desire in a birding bins (see the thread about what attributes you value the most in a birding bin).

Some manufacturers go to the other extreme and add too much pincushion. IMO, a birding bin manufacturer's goal should be to strike a good balance between pincushion and rolling ball and aim for the most natural view possible.

When I look at a bird with a premium 8x32 or 8x42 birding bin, I want to feel like I'm 8 times closer to the bird and not be aware that I'm looking through binoculars because of distracting CA, fuzzy edges, rolling ball, pincushion, flaring, stray light, etc.

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by ronh

Patrick,
All the strap discussion may have distracted attention from your comment at the beginning, "I've tried a number of binoculars (Zeiss, Swarovski, Leica, Steiner, Kowa, Kamakura, Nikon, Meopta) in the last week and think Kowa Prominar 8.5x44 XD has the best optics of all." What a week you had, and what an interesting conclusion.

This Kowa has been complained about some here for its weight, it's perfect rectilearity/"rolling globe effect", and some focus smoothness quibbles. But the basic optical quality seems to wow everybody. Holger Merlitz, in every one of his many reviews, says some kind of boilerplate statement like "all properly made binoculars appear sharp at the center of the image", except for his review of the Prominar, which really got his attention in this very important respect.

I'd love to try one. If you end up getting one, Patrick, tell us all about it.
Ron

Ron,

This is true with Holger, he usually says the same thing about every bin, and that's in large part, because he's an amateur astronomer, as evidenced by the fact that when he ranks "image sharpness" at the end of his reviews what he's actually ranking is the sharpness of the image at the bin's edges.

To the best of my recollection, the Kowa was the first ED birding bin he has reviewed.

I remember how impressed I was with the first ED bin I bought. I've tried about half a dozen now, and while I'm still impressed with the view, it's not the same "Wow! moment" as the first time.

As more and more bins employ the use of extra low dispersion glasses, something else (field flatteners?) will be what impresses people.

"Wow! Look at the sharp edges on this EL".
"I guess you never looked through an SE before, eh?" :-)

With the Zen Ray 7x36 Holger said:
"The contrast and sharpness are excellent in the central region of the image, a tad superior even to the Docter's, and on a same level with the Nikon EII."

I have the EIIs and a good specimen is about as sharp as a bin can get, on par with my SE, so that's high praises for the Zens, concluding in his summary that:

"This is a quality binocular, perhaps being the best one among those 'Made in China' glasses which I have tested so far..."

Of course, a lot of the article was about the much talked about stray light issue, which has now been fixed with a baffle.

Considering the Genesis costs $1,200 and the 7x36 he had cost $400 - a difference of $800 - you could buy three Zen Rays for the price of a Kowa, so it darn well better be impressive!

But if weight is the problem for The Kingfisher, perhaps you should try the ZR ED or Promaster ED if you have no aversions to buying from China.

I've tried the Promaster, and the views are very similar to the Nikon LX (which I consider to be one of the best bins I've ever used) but without the CA.

I can also recommend the Nikon EDG. Nearly twice the price of the Kowa, but the bin is delightful to hold, particularly if you have large hands.

The EDG is not a lightweight (28 oz), but the weight is better distributed compared to a close bridge roof so it "feels its weight" less.

[James Bean]

I took my Zeiss 6x18 last night to watch Gerry & The Pacemakers at the Floral Pavilion, New Brighton, and didn't have any neck strain at all. Could this be the answer?