[mike60]

Has anyone had experience with these compact bins? Are they best in class? What else should be considered in waterproof compact roofs?

[pduxon]

Hi Mike

are you particularly after a compact? Assuming you do you might want to read the following http://www.betterviewdesired.com/compacts/index.html

[Leif]

Originally Posted by mike60

Has anyone had experience with these compact bins? Are they best in class? What else should be considered in waterproof compact roofs?

Here in the UK the Zeiss Classic 8x20 is considerably cheaper. I bought one for me mum some years back. It has a fair bit of edge softness though and is not waterproof. The Nikon 8x20 HG is also cheaper than the Victory and said to be very good. Porros such as a B&L 8x26 H2O will be significantly cheaper but not so compact.

[postcardcv]

I have been recently looking at compacts and tried all that I could get my hands on. For me the Swarovski 8x20b came out on top - has a very bright, sharp, contrasty image and felt good in the hand. I would certainly recommend trying a few different ones if you can as everyones is different - I have friends who would not swap their leica compacts for any other and others who swear by the Nikons....

[trealawboy]

Originally Posted by mike60

Has anyone had experience with these compact bins? Are they best in class? What else should be considered in waterproof compact roofs?

I have a pair of Nikon 8x20 HG DCF. They are quite outstanding. I paid GBP299 last August but I notice that they are now GBP239 at Warehouse Express. I compared them with the Zeiss 8x20 Victory and though they are very good, I opted for the Nikons. A crisper image that is somehow more natural to the eye.

Other difference are the rubber armouring of the Zeiss which is quite nice. The Nikon have a more conventional finish but are superbly built. Zeiss have the diopter at the front and focus wheel near the eyes. Nikon have them the other way round which at first takes a litle getting used to but is not really an issue once you've used them for a while. You focus with your little or ring finger.

The Victory are better than the Classic compact though. Leicas are not waterproof I think, Swarovskis are good, but do try the Nikons.

[mike60]

Thanks for the comments!
Am I correct in saying the swaros arent waterproof?
I really am after a very compact compact (roof), and want something ultra durable and waterproof. The reason I have avoided looking at the nikons is that the little finger focusing seemed strange to me, and I have 2 nikon bins already - and a raft of nikon cameras and lenses. I'll end up owning their whole range :-)
I should probably take a good look at them.

[Gaukur]

I have the Zeiss Victory 10x25 which I find to be a wonderful compact. They are nicely rubber armored and waterproof, therefore I bought it rather than Zeiss Classic 10x25.

[michaelboustead]

Originally Posted by Gaukur

I have the Zeiss Victory 10x25 which I find to be a wonderful compact. They are nicely rubber armored and waterproof, therefore I bought it rather than Zeiss Classic 10x25.

I have the 8x20 victory which I take on birding trips as a back up and keep in my car for non birding trips. I think they are great within their limitations. Naturally, they are not as bright as a full size bino nor will they resolve at a distance as a full size bino would do.

The image is excellent for compact bino and they have one great attribute.

They are with me.

[Jane Turner]

The Leicas remain the best in class in my opinion....

[trealawboy]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

The Leicas remain the best in class in my opinion....

... why? ....

[CDK]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

The Leicas remain the best in class in my opinion....

Jane, cannot argue as you rightly state an opinion. I have looked at the data from each companies brochure, hopefully something might help.

Zeiss 8x20 Victory Leica 8x20 BCA
FoV 117m @ 1000m 115m @ 1000m
Cloce Focus 2.6m 3m
Weight 225g 235g
Dimensions 93x77x46 92x60x35
Waterproof Yes No (weatherproof)

Cannot comment on resolution or other measureable parameters, or feel which is subjective.

Best to try both, if not all.

[DHB]

I have had the latest Leica and the Victory. Both are very good. For me the double hinge of the Leica was the deciding negative factor. To me they seemed about the same optically. Both are amazing for such a little glass.
Dave

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by trealawboy

... why? ....

They won on field of view, crispness of image, comparable on depth of field,close focus and size/lightness. But apart from than no reason :) I spent a couple of hours one day at Schipol airport..really just to kill time... trying them all out. I ended up buying the Leicas.

[Jeffintercamb]

I managed to do a careful comparison between a number of 8x20s - Zeiss Classic & Victory, Swarovski, Nikon HG & Leica.

The Zeiss models have a slightly soft edge of field and some barrel distortion, the Swaros are similar (as far as I can recollect), Leica include edge of field pincushion distortion as standard and they happily inform customers in their literature that it's to improve matters while panning!!! (Ten out of ten for imaginative marketing of an optical defect).... along with a "built in" rattle as detailed in another forum...

Only the Nikon had almost edge to edge sharpness along with minimal distortion and a brighter image than the others.

Price was not to be the deciding factor....

In the end it was between the more modern designs of the Victorys and the Nikons.

The Nikon eyepices (twist up metal / overlayed with rubber) are better (appear more durable) than the resin push / pull Zeiss ones.

The overall solid build quality and bright, sharp (across the field) view clinched it for the Nikons. They were also the cheapest (£225 - Ace in Bath - now £239) and after two months of intense use, having had another look at the Zeisses again, I am perfectly happy with my choice.

The focus could be on the back and rubber armouring would add peace of mind, but you soon find the "front end" focus natural and the supplied neck strap negates the need for a bounce test :-)

You may place higher priorities on certain design aspects and admittedly there isn't a huge difference between the view through all these models, but if you're after the best ones to look through... try hunting down a pair of the Nikons (it's a pity they're so hard to find in high street shops here in the UK...!)

Hope I haven't upset all you owners of the "other" models.... ;-)!

Jeff.

[mike60]

Jeff, thanks for that excellent summary. Based on my own 'specs' (waterproof + durable + compact roof), I am concluding that its between the zeiss victory, and the nikon hg. My father owns a swarovski 8x20 and they dont seem to suit my eyes, and leica arent waterproof - although many say the optics are excellent (the rattle wouldnt worry me if they are all the same). I have only briefly looked through the zeiss on 2 occasions, and the nikons only once. The nikons looked superior in build quality to me, and they did seem a shade brighter. zeiss had better ergonomics, but its all highly subjective.
I am leaning towards the nikons like you did, but I need to do a much more detailed side by side comparison between the 2.
Thanks again for the comments from everyone.

[iporali]

FWIW - In a recent Finnish review of two 8x20 and two 8x32 binos (Nikon HG & Swarovski), small Nikons were considered clearly better for the reasons listed above (and in BVD). They even claimed that in good light the compact Nikons challenge the 8x32HGs as main binoculars - which IMO is quite hard to swallow, but apparently the small Nikons must be VERY good indeed.

Ilkka

[CDK]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

They won on field of view, crispness of image, comparable on depth of field,close focus and size/lightness. But apart from than no reason :) I spent a couple of hours one day at Schipol airport..really just to kill time... trying them all out. I ended up buying the Leicas.

Jane. I took the specs from the brochures of each manufacturer (posted above). FoV, Weight, Close Focus are in favour of the Victory.

[mike60]

By most accounts these little nikon bins are very good but i very much doubt the 8x20hg would challenge the 8x32hg in any feature of image quality. I suppose if portability is your overiding concern, they may be considered some sort of 'challenger'.
Do they come with a decent soft case? What's the warranty period?
Any opinions on colour fringing in high contrast situations with the 8x20hg?

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by CDK

Jane. I took the specs from the brochures of each manufacturer (posted above). FoV, Weight, Close Focus are in favour of the Victory.

OK - I must have been swayed by the clarity of the image... I looked though the nikons last week and was impressed

[Jeffintercamb]

Originally Posted by mike60

By most accounts these little nikon bins are very good but i very much doubt the 8x20hg would challenge the 8x32hg in any feature of image quality. I suppose if portability is your overiding concern, they may be considered some sort of 'challenger'.
Do they come with a decent soft case? What's the warranty period?
Any opinions on colour fringing in high contrast situations with the 8x20hg?

The Nikons come with a quality leather pouch (almost too nice for day in day out use...) and a ten year international warranty.

As regards chromatic abberation (colour fringing), it never seems to bother me (and I go looking for these things when choosing / using optics), although there can be a little when viewing a dark object (bird / tree branches) against a bright background (sky / sunlit water).

However, just to put this into perspective, I compared them to the 8x32 HGs when buying my 8x20 HGs and the larger model seemed worse in this respect. Maybe their extra light gathering power accentuates false colour...?

I also looked at the 8x32 SE model which offers a wider field of view and an image which seems more "alive", but in the end I knew that the 8x20s would be more portable and therefore get used more often. Their only (minor) drawback is the need for careful eye positioning (in common with all small binoculars).

Nikon's smaller model offers a better view than many full sized models at this price range and also share the basic characteristics of their "bigger brothers" at around half their price - surely that's worth thinking about....

Jeff.

[trealawboy]

Originally Posted by mike60

By most accounts these little nikon bins are very good but i very much doubt the 8x20hg would challenge the 8x32hg in any feature of image quality. I suppose if portability is your overiding concern, they may be considered some sort of 'challenger'.
Do they come with a decent soft case? What's the warranty period?
Any opinions on colour fringing in high contrast situations with the 8x20hg?

I use the 8x20HG DCF every day in my morning stroll round work, and yesterday evening in difficult bright hazy light and towards sunset. They always perform outstandingly. They have a nice clear view right to the edge, and CA is absolutely minimal and I have looked for it. They come with a nice leather case that has a belt loop. I now carry these bins everywhere except when I switch to a larger pair when I'm out birding all day.

These have impressed me so much that my next pair of fullsize bins will almost certainly be Nikons.

[mike60]

I spent a couple of hours today comparing nikon, zeiss, and leica 8x20 bins at a shop. Here are my impressions :
I quickly excluded the leica for a few reasons. The image was not as bright as the nikons to my eyes, and I found the shape made them awkward to hold steady, particulary when focusing the fairly small wheel. I also found the focusing to be similar to the ultravids - a grainy rather than silky feel with excessive play. They do have a very sharp image, with good resolution, but they arent waterproof - excluding them for my purposes.
I spent more time comparing the optics of the zeiss and nikons, in my amateurish way. The resolution at the centre appeared very marginally better for the zeiss - it was hard to be certain (I use tiny text on a poster in a dim spot across the street). In every other way, the nikons were better. They were the only bins of the 3 that sometimes allowed you to forget they are compacts. Good resolution across the entire image, good contrast, good depth of field (to my eyes), and as others have said an image that felt closer to a full size bin than any of the others. The "fatigue factor" when you look through them seemed far less than with the other 8x20s, and they seem more forgiving with aligning the eye position. The eyecups are simply excellent.
The nikon focusing mechanism is very smooth, and its position was natural within minutes for me, although it does seem to have a minute amount of play. Zeiss has a nicely placed wheel with no play, but its a bit narrow and slightly stiff to move. I still like the zeiss ergonomics - rubber and very lightweight, but in the zeiss sample i tried, i noticed a small gray spot near the perimeter of the image which i couldnt identify. I assume it was a quality fault in that sample only.
The nikons do seem a shade heavier, but i found that aided stability for these tiny bins, and they are the best build quality of the 3 by a long way, in my view.
Although I decided on the nikons today, i wasnt planning to buy today. When i checked their best prices, though, the nikons were nearly $100 cheaper than what I had been previously quoted from 2 other shops, so I bought them. Used them a few hours this afternoon, and I am absolutely thrilled with them so far :-)
(My main concern re the focusing wheel position is really not an issue)

One thing that fascinated me - in my usual 'shop' check on CA (an illuminated white text sign on black background) all 3 bins were very good - nikon CA was suprisingly tightly controlled. I compared with Leica bn 8x42 which happened to be on the counter, and it had heaps more!......why is this the case? Its the reverse of what I expected.

[Leif]

Originally Posted by mike60

One thing that fascinated me - in my usual 'shop' check on CA (an illuminated white text sign on black background) all 3 bins were very good - nikon CA was suprisingly tightly controlled. I compared with Leica bn 8x42 which happened to be on the counter, and it had heaps more!......why is this the case? Its the reverse of what I expected.

I think it's because these compact binoculars tend to have objectives with larger F ratios i.e. where the F ratio is defined as the ratio of the focal length to the diameter. Generally the smaller the F ratio the more severe the CA.

[mike60]

Leif : Why does a smaller F lead to more CA?

[Leif]

Originally Posted by mike60

Leif : Why does a smaller F lead to more CA?

Because the smaller the F ratio of a lens, the greater the lens curvature, and hence the greater the 'dispersion'.

Think about a mixture of red and blue light coming from an 'infinitely distant object' incident on a lens. The two colours will be brought to two different foci. The distance between the two foci can be measured, and is seen to increase as the lens F ratio is reduced. This is because the amount that light is refracted by glass is a function of wavelength.

This can also be proved mathematically, and it will also be seen that as the F ratio decreases, so other aberrations, esp. spherical, get worse too.