[Ardy]

Is your participation in the binocular forums to find a better glass for birding or to just find a better glass?I joined this site to better my understandings as a birder,but I find myself spending less time on the birding fundaments part of it and more on the search for optical nirvana.It's not that I've lost any fascination with birds,it's just that I've acquired a fascination with optics.I spend as much time looking at telephone wires to check for edge distortion as I do looking at birds..Not that there's anything wrong with that....:)
I tend to be a bit compulsive at times to the point of losing site of what the original objective was....to view birds better.I've decided to put the new el's on hold and be satisfied with the 8x32 se's Zen 7x36 and 6.5x21 Papilio's,and sell everything else.I can see this could get to be like my audio obsession......next years model will bring tears to you eyes and your wallet.I got to get a grip,more birds less binoculars....I think I can....I think I can....
Here's an interesting take on it....
http://www.aba.org/birding/v39n4p36.pdf

[RJM]

It's all about the gear my friend! Far more fun scowering the online stores and forums from the comfort of the Lazy Boy for the latest sightings of binoptica perfecta than trudging miles through rural landscapes in poor weather lugging pounds of gear hoping to catch a glimpse a tiny grey birdus stupidus that you can't even catch or deep fry.

happy 2010!
Rick

[Martin Fagg]

I know exactly what you're saying. I started looking on here to research bins and acopes with the purpose of upgrading my views of the birds. I have become addicted to researching. There's something very compulsive about digging out every last bit of info and opinion on a particular piece of equipment. Even though I can't afford and have no intention of buying many of them.

I love it :) and now my dad's started doing it so we can discuss the merits of different models (phone bills are going up :) )

But I do spend more time on here than in the field. But what can you do when it's dark outside?

If it gives you pleasure then go with it. So long as you can keep your hands away from the plastic cards!

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by RJM

It's all about the gear my friend! Far more fun scowering the online stores and forums from the comfort of the Lazy Boy for the latest sightings of binoptica perfecta than trudging miles through rural landscapes in poor weather lugging pounds of gear hoping to catch a glimpse a tiny grey birdus stupidus that you can't even catch or deep fry.

happy 2010!
Rick

LOL! Thanks a lot Rick! You're really helping me out here!

[Ardy]

Just for a reference I spent $50 on a 50mw green laser last week to test my bino's that have Fluorite lenses.Had to get it from England as 5mw is the strongest allowed by law here.So by importing it I'm breaking the law to own something I'll probably only use once or twice."But your honour"...."I just had to know!"

[GregLee]

Originally Posted by Ardy

Is your participation in the binocular forums to find a better glass for birding or to just find a better glass?

Better glass. I never was that interested in birds, actually. Stars is more my scope.

[Sancho]

I sometimes suspect I´ve gone too far in the optics direction, Ardy. That said, I live on an island with comparatively few bird species, so seeing new ones becomes increasingly difficult, so the "ticking" element of birding becomes very time-consuming. I´ve ordered the new EL´s, but aim to sell off pretty much everything else when they arrive. In my own defence, (your honour), I have it pretty much divided into two aspects....When I´m indoors, optics are the obsession. When I´m outdoors, I forget what optics I´m carrying and birds take precedence. (Or I amble about aimlessly looking at everything and nothing in particular).

I often wonder to what extent the internet, and forums such as this, are a powerful marketing tool for optics companies, and to what extent we ourselves drive innovation in optics. I´m not suggesting this is a bad thing, in fact it really is how capitalism is supposed to "work" on paper....companies responding to consumer preferences and all that. But I´m sure that the constant on-line reviewing, discussion, etc. of various optics that has "hooked" me into the market would be impossible otherwise....I simply don´t know anyone in the "real" world who gives a darn about optics, and I wouldn´t be hooked by birding-magazine adverts or reviews in print (I´ve kind of inured myself to TV and print advertising over the years, and can ignore it at will). I reckon the optics companies owe a rather large debt to sites like this one for the service....even if they don´t advertise overtly, a thread entitled "Z/L/S" or whatever, to which we all contribute and which we all read, is powerful advertising in itself, and perfectly targeted at precisely the right market-segment....obsessives like ourselves. For example....I´d never heard of the laser-gizmo you described to test the fluorite in your binoculars....now I´d love to see one....just for the hell of it....I wonder where my credit card is.......

[username]

Dear Ardy.....many thanks for posting the link to 'bare naked birding'...it echoed my every sentiment....an excellent and refreshing read!
I feel exactly the same as Ted regards the art of birding...the true 'art' of fieldcraft seems to have been diluted in recent years by the amazing advances in technology/optics etc. [Not with everyone i hasten to add]
In that article, i loved the idea of sending folk out without the aid of optics...and i would recommend that all budding birdy inclined folk do this in order to increase their observational abilities and intuition.

Regards the obsessional 'thing' with optics....i am not immune to the siren wails/seduction techniques from the manufacturers, bombarded as we are, with very slick advertising of the 'latest' advances.
I always like to check out new bins/scopes...and it is great fun...but thankfully my common sense usually kicks in..[usually when i read the price ticket]

ps...[a related thought]...i think that we ought to establish a 'school of birding' where a field test...similar to a driving test...has to be taken in order to get your 'wings'...[in order to pass a competency test in other words]...

[temmie]

With modern good optics you can detect birds from miles away. Your radius will be a lot bigger, because you can resolve BIF you would not resolve with the bare eye. Birding goes a lot faster with good equipment, i.e. in the hands of a good birder! It takes milliseconds to switch from the bare eye to the bins, so why wouldn't one enjoy the details of the feathers, rather than looking at a small dot with a certain (very rewarding) giss? Heck, I even put the scope on birds only meters away, to have that eye-ball-to-eyeball pornstar views!

For me, the link reads like an old-man story. He has probably more than 30 years of birding experience, and he can't stand the way a lot of people nowadays are birdwatching (i.e. without too much knowledge, but with top-notch equipment). He has a point about learning birds' behaviour/habitat/movements/... but he still seems a little too much like a schoolteacher.

Well, 30 years ago you could already buy very good binoculars (the likes of Zeiss and Leitz), so not much has changed about that. Many people still go birding without a scope (surely when travelling), so I would not dare to say there has been an enormeous change over the years.

The only thing that has really changed, is a lot more people have started birding. 'Average' Joe-sixpack-birdwatcher is less experienced nowadays, but the hard-core scene is still the same as always: mostly male geeks only to be found in harbours, rubbish dumps, industrial sites, rainy rocky cliffs and middle-of-nowhere nature reserves.

[J. Moore]

Originally Posted by Ardy

Is your participation in the binocular forums to find a better glass for birding or to just find a better glass?

I'm only an occasional participant in the optics forums, and birding is definitely primary for me. I really prefer not to be able to appreciate subtle differences in optics, because then I'll get distracted from the more important thing (for me)--what I'm looking at. It's my impression that a lot of the participants in the optics forums are not even birders -- many are hunters, astronomy buffs, or just people with technical expertise. I think there's only a few posters here who I've seen post both in the Bird ID Forum (where I do most of my posting) and the optics forums, for example.

Best,
Jim

[Tero]

I do not demand the ultimate in sharpness. It is sometimes other things that bother me. When I forget I am looking through glass, then I am OK. Usually an 8x32. With 10x I end up with too much diopter fiddling for best view. Scopes are fine, there are not two eyes to try to accomodate.

[stereotruckdriver]

To me it's all about the VIEW!!! There's nothing that compares to seeing a colorful bird in all it's splendor in a really good Binocular or Scope! So far out of all of my collecting only three pieces of kit bring out the WOW! 8x32 SE, Pentax DCF ED 10x43 (wich I found lately I'm having to tripod mount 10x) and the Pentax 65 ED A with either XW14 or XW20! I will always be on the search for something that will give me that ultimate view of Birds and other wildlife!!! Bryce...

[Yippeekiay]

I have to admit that my original inquiries on the bin forums were to find top notch glass for long range shooting. Not wanting to be a putz who just wants free information I decided to actually look at some birds. That was exactly 1 year ago. Today I've got top notch glass (for the small amount of money spent) and a life list that's just over 100 species long. Even made a new years resolution to find the other 100 or so species in my first regional field guide.
So I'm going to say the initial obsession w/ the optics is waning and the love of being in the field, woods or on the shore has taken over. The enjoyment outside and bird identification is being augmented exponentially by seeing things w/ eyes better than my own (i.e. high quality optics).

[ronh]

OH so you want to know my whole philosophy of life eh? No problem!

I feel very lucky, that I was sort of sucked into birding through what was first an interest in astronomy and telescopes, then binoculars for astronomy. I started to realize that daytime binocular observing was a very different activity, offering the magical extension of the awareness over long distances, requiring much different instruments from astronomy. I thought that was fascinating, and came here for the optics expertise. Then it started to strike me that birds are perhaps the most beautiful and interesting, things in that daytime landscape. Compared to mammals, say, they are much more likely to present themselves, and are extremely colored and varied in their activities--an easy mark, at least for a beginner. I have seen about five bobcats and two mountain lions in my whole life, so cat watching would almost be a total washout, you know? Learning and watching birds has become an addictive pleasure!

I still observe the sky regularly but haven't felt the need for another telescope in a long time. Binoculars are more complicated and interesting, and the intimate connection between binocular and observer is the kind of man/machine interface that people have always enjoyed, be it honorable or not. I enjoy reading reviews, debating the various models, thinking about optics, and get excited about the occasional purchase of a new binocular.

But the biggest thrill in the world for me now is the day in the field, call it birdwatching if you like, but a lot of it is just being outside in some wild place. Study of the birds gives focus to the outing.

In a larger sense, bird study is a window into the terrestrial part of the whole sphere of nature, which stretches to the edge of the universe and down into the realm of the unseen and small. It is sort of a passion with me, to get an overview, however shallow, of that entire sphere.

I can't go by a body of water without wanting to see into a droplet at high magnification. Do microscopes cost a lot of money, do you think? Does it uh, matter, what kind I get?
Ron

[Steve C]

Ardy,

Thanks for that link, it was a good read. I think Mr. Eubanks makes a good point. I do think birding has become a lot more oriented toward to how many birds are on the list or how many ID's are made on an outing. Hunting is getting to be gadget oriented too. The cry for more stuff. As if more stuff will make one a better birder or hunter. It is about getting outside and using your senses and observational skills and enjoying yourself while out. I always enjoy my time outside, I don't particularly give a hoot if I see less than I might have.

I guess everything is getting gadget oriented. I just got a Motorola Droid phone. In a moment of reflection, it dawned on me that that phone has a faster processor and more storage than the first decent work computer I had, not to mention the computer couldn't take pictures, call anybody or tell me where to go should I get lost. Now I suppose I could find a bird guide to put on it too.

I have sort of slowed down on my optics infatuation. After you get two or three decent binoculars and maybe a decent scope, then the decision of which one to actually use can get too difficult. It gets down to just grab a decent one (and no, it does not have to cost an arm and a leg), get your bird guide and go enjoy yourself. I have figured out I can see all I ever need to see and do what I need to do with the 7x36 and 10x43 ZEN ED and I can use the saved $$ for other essenial stuff.

[vop]

Originally Posted by Martin Fagg

I started looking on here to research bins and acopes with the purpose of upgrading my views of the birds. I have become addicted to researching. There's something very compulsive about digging out every last bit of info and opinion on a particular piece of equipment. Even though I can't afford and have no intention of buying many of them.

I find myself right there too. And it's very good that I don't have enough money to indulge in the buying frenzy that would be the result of my bino-fantasies! I would probably end up filling the fridge with them too.

But it's great fun reading about binoculars and thinking about what kind of bino would be right for a certain occasion.

However, being out in the field, "hunting" for and watching birds (and other animals and stuff) is the most important.

I'm quite in the beginning of my birding career; I've actually not counted how many birds I've seen. But just walking in the woods or sitting at a lake watching, with or without binoculars, some common ducks or sparrows (do I dare say tits?, as it is my favorite bird family) doing their everyday things is to me the absolute most rewarding thing. Honestly!

[Kevin Conville]

I've enjoyed this thread so far. The article makes good points and many of the responses have been good as well.

I think I'm fairly well balanced regarding these issues. I'm not immune to reading the endless hair-splitting between optics, but I don't have to own them.
I'm also not the best birder around, but I'm not the worst either and I enjoy very much learning things, when in the field especially. I think I'm a pretty good and patient observer and that somewhat compensates for my auditory deficiencies.
I have to say though that I'm very much into the aesthetic of birds and because of that I tend more toward the artistic than the scientific. The most enjoyable thing for me is being out on a nice day observing all forms of nature without any thoughts of what equipment I have with me other than it's ability to allow me a better view when I need it. As has been said before, the best optics are those that just get out of the way, that magically bring your subject closer without thinking about the tool in any way.

BTW, the best birder I know uses an old pair of Bushnell 10x50 porro that probably cost $80 new, and no scope.

[kristoffer]

I really like optics, and I really like birds and birding. Win-Win situation when participating on this forum. Like Kevin said, the best optics just deliver a perfect image to me without any hassle on the way. Unlike Kevin, the best birder I ever met has Swarovski EL bins and the Kowa 883 scope

[KorHaan]

Originally Posted by Ardy

Is your participation in the binocular forums to find a better glass for birding or to just find a better glass?]

To find a better glass for birding. I'm lucky I discovered the benefits of image stabilisation in binoculars, it certainly helps a lot to have a shakefree image when you're studying birds. I reckon that, for me, it's the most important factor in a pair of binoculars.
I sold my scope ( Zeiss 65 ) and my tripod. I'm using only one pair of bins now, Canon 18x50 IS's. The psychological advantage of this is huge; I know that I can get an ID of most birds I encounter, yet I'm so relaxed as to this peace of mind that I find myself looking at birds without raising the bins to my eyes. I like to play that little game to see if I can ID birds with the naked eye first, then confirm what I think with my powerful binoculars.

The need for a good owling bin is still there, though, because The Canons with their 2.7 mm exit pupil stink at this.

The fact that I sold my scope had one unexpected consequence; avid birders/twitchers (all carrying scopes) tend to ignore me. It frightens me a bit that we are seeing a widening gap between "scope people" and the growing number of "bins only" people. After all, it's only birding which we all like.
Anyway, I'm most comfortable when I'm on myself, sitting for hours on a low stool, just waiting what might show up. Most birders I know are too impatient to do this. They see more birds, no doubt, than I do. But the reward for my long hours is that nice birds DO turn up, plus it's kind of soothing for the soul to just sit and do nothing.

Thanks for this thoughtful thread, Ardy,

Best regards,

Ronald

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by Sancho

I sometimes suspect I´ve gone too far in the optics direction, Ardy. That said, I live on an island with comparatively few bird species, so seeing new ones becomes increasingly difficult, so the "ticking" element of birding becomes very time-consuming. I´ve ordered the new EL´s, but aim to sell off pretty much everything else when they arrive. In my own defence, (your honour), I have it pretty much divided into two aspects....When I´m indoors, optics are the obsession. When I´m outdoors, I forget what optics I´m carrying and birds take precedence. (Or I amble about aimlessly looking at everything and nothing in particular).

I often wonder to what extent the internet, and forums such as this, are a powerful marketing tool for optics companies, and to what extent we ourselves drive innovation in optics. I´m not suggesting this is a bad thing, in fact it really is how capitalism is supposed to "work" on paper....companies responding to consumer preferences and all that. But I´m sure that the constant on-line reviewing, discussion, etc. of various optics that has "hooked" me into the market would be impossible otherwise....I simply don´t know anyone in the "real" world who gives a darn about optics, and I wouldn´t be hooked by birding-magazine adverts or reviews in print (I´ve kind of inured myself to TV and print advertising over the years, and can ignore it at will). I reckon the optics companies owe a rather large debt to sites like this one for the service....even if they don´t advertise overtly, a thread entitled "Z/L/S" or whatever, to which we all contribute and which we all read, is powerful advertising in itself, and perfectly targeted at precisely the right market-segment....obsessives like ourselves. For example....I´d never heard of the laser-gizmo you described to test the fluorite in your binoculars....now I´d love to see one....just for the hell of it....I wonder where my credit card is.......

The reason you get "hooked" is because advertisers are flashing high speed subliminal messages at you to buy their products, which bypasses your conscious mind and reaches directly into your subconscious, which is why you feel sudden cravings for foods, binoculars, and expensive laser gizmos.

On the Internet, the only cure for this is using dial up. :-)

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by ronh

OH so you want to know my whole philosophy of life eh? No problem!


In a larger sense, bird study is a window into the terrestrial part of the whole sphere of nature, which stretches to the edge of the universe and down into the realm of the unseen and small. It is sort of a passion with me, to get an overview, however shallow, of that entire sphere.

I can't go by a body of water without wanting to see into a droplet at high magnification. Do microscopes cost a lot of money, do you think? Does it uh, matter, what kind I get?
Ron

Ronh,I have no problem avoiding that droplet..(I know how many Chupacabras are in that drop)...but I agree with your prior paragraph.
I think your philosophy of life is in that paragraph....and it's much like my own...so may I ask you this? What's the secret of gravity???...Always wanted to know....

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Conville

BTW, the best birder I know uses an old pair of Bushnell 10x50 porro that probably cost $80 new, and no scope.

Just curious kevin.Does this birder feel like his bushnells "get out of the way" ?If you looked through them do you think you would feel the same way?

[ronh]

Ardy,
Thanks for introducing me to the exciting world of Chupacabras, or "goat suckers". (That is also another name for the night hawk or night jar, one of my favorite birds, my wife and I go out at sunset on the measatops and watch them fly.)

For this enlightenment, I owe you the secret of gravity. But I don't know it. At least not from a physics direction. Just describing what it does is enough of a challenge for the likes of me.

But I've got this idea, that Gravity is generated by the universe's need to hold itself together. It's like, why does ice float? If it sank, and another layer froze and sank, etc., the pond would fill slam up with ice and all the fish would die. The universe is very smart like that, see? You just have to learn to think like a universe.
Ron

[Kevin Conville]

Originally Posted by Ardy

Just curious kevin.Does this birder feel like his bushnells "get out of the way" ?If you looked through them do you think you would feel the same way?

I don't know what he think when he uses his bins. He did once say to me that they seemed "pretty good" to him. I left it alone.

Would I be happy using those bins? No.

I mentioned him because he really knows birds and he also doesn't seem to care much about the nuance of the view through his bins. I'm guessing he'd probably be comfortable going birding without bins at all. He knows their calls, their behavior, their habitat, and he's an avid enthusiast and a good teacher. I will also probably never know as much about birds as he does, but I probably enjoy the experience just as much, albeit for slightly different reasons.

Don't misunderstand, I use good equipment myself. I consider my time afield to be precious and want to fully enjoy the experience. I just don't obsess about it and amongst most in my local Audubon it's even sort of considered vulgar to talk about equipment, and I'm OK with that.

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by Kevin Conville

I
Don't misunderstand, I use good equipment myself. I consider my time afield to be precious and want to fully enjoy the experience. I just don't obsess about it and amongst most in my local Audubon it's even sort of considered vulgar to talk about equipment, and I'm OK with that.

The reason I asked is that for years all I used was a cheap pair of Bushnell Falcons 7x35 and I was compleatly satisfied with them....til someone handed me a pair of Nikon SE's to look through.