-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ID Buzzard or Marsh Harrier male (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Nikon Kid
- Start date
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Agreed.
The Hairy Highlander
Well-known member
Looks like a pale adult..
birdboybowley
Well-known member.....apparently so ;)
Yeah, adults come in a whole variety of plumages
deborah4
Well-known member
Interested to know why people see this as an adult. The pale iris is clearly visible and the trailing edge of the wing shows only a very diffuse inner margin imo. Juveniles can show some adult barring on the lower body. (If you lighten the photo a bit, there is no apparent subterminal band on the tail). I thought these features were diagnostic of juvenile/1w/2cy?
(Are the worn longer primaries/short outer p's, this time of year also indicative of a juvenile? Not sure!)
Someone convince me - otherwise I remain confused!
(Are the worn longer primaries/short outer p's, this time of year also indicative of a juvenile? Not sure!)
Someone convince me - otherwise I remain confused!
Last edited:
dantheman
Bah humbug
deborah4
Well-known member
I'm merely going to agree that this one is definitely a Buzzard ...
That's fine Dan if you are unable to age it. However, the OP requested some kind of age identification and I'm inclined to disagree with it being an 'adult' but open to more explanation one way or t'other, so hopefully someone with a bit more experience can help us out here
And it's not often we get such a great photo on the ID threads of raptors so lets make the most of it!
It's a juvenile because of the features mentioned by Deborah. Note that many juveniles have much more adult-like trailing edges to the wings than this bird.
Here's an adult for comparison:
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Jniemi1180085255&lang=eng
Here's a second winter bird (which is identified through the combination of adult and juvenile feathers):
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=masa1130311382&lang=eng
Note that (regarding the second winter bird):
-the three outermost primaries are still juvenile (more pointed and faded)
-some of the secondaries are also juvenile, being shorter and having a paler tip
-the iris is still pale
-these features are visible until the next moult, as the first moult of Common Buzzard is usually not complete (the later moults are complete)
Here's an adult for comparison:
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Jniemi1180085255&lang=eng
Here's a second winter bird (which is identified through the combination of adult and juvenile feathers):
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=masa1130311382&lang=eng
Note that (regarding the second winter bird):
-the three outermost primaries are still juvenile (more pointed and faded)
-some of the secondaries are also juvenile, being shorter and having a paler tip
-the iris is still pale
-these features are visible until the next moult, as the first moult of Common Buzzard is usually not complete (the later moults are complete)
deborah4
Well-known member
Thanks CAU. That's helpful.
I still have trouble aging primaries though. I can see the secondaries in the original photo are all one generation/juvenile. I also can understand the aging of primaries on your 2w example. But could you maybe say anything about the recognisable condition of the primaries in the original photo?
All pointed and appear to be barred - is this an identification of retained juveniles?
What about the length of the outer primaries - ie. being rather short - again a feature of juvenile?
The outer two (shortest) appear to be in relatively good condition cf.to the next (3,4,5)(EDIT sorry that should have been 8,7,6!) - can this be a helpful indication of age cf. to 3cy this time of year (ie. wear according to subsequent moult sequence of primaries in first primary moult (2cy April/May) when outer primaries retained? (Would an adult/4cy this time of year have even wear on the primaries?)
sorry for so many Q's!
I still have trouble aging primaries though. I can see the secondaries in the original photo are all one generation/juvenile. I also can understand the aging of primaries on your 2w example. But could you maybe say anything about the recognisable condition of the primaries in the original photo?
All pointed and appear to be barred - is this an identification of retained juveniles?
What about the length of the outer primaries - ie. being rather short - again a feature of juvenile?
The outer two (shortest) appear to be in relatively good condition cf.to the next (3,4,5)(EDIT sorry that should have been 8,7,6!) - can this be a helpful indication of age cf. to 3cy this time of year (ie. wear according to subsequent moult sequence of primaries in first primary moult (2cy April/May) when outer primaries retained? (Would an adult/4cy this time of year have even wear on the primaries?)
sorry for so many Q's!
Last edited:
Yes, juvenile primaries are more pointed than adult, but the exact shape is usually difficult to assess if the bird has no adult primaries to compare with. Regarding the pattern, the inner ones are patterned like the secondaries, with greyish tips, which is a good ageing feature, but the outer ones (the fingers) are probably quite similar to adult feathers.
I'd believe that the relative lengths of the primaries (the wing formula) is similar on both adults and juveniles, but on juveniles all the remiges are slightly shorter, which makes them look narrower winged and slimmer in flight.
Yes, at this time of the year first adult (second winter) birds show a few retained juvenile outer primaries, which are significantly more worn than the fresh inner ones. On older birds all the the feathers are usually of the same generation (well, there might be some exceptions, for example the moult might sometimes become arrested due to malnutrition). The adult feathers are usually quite uniformly worn, but there are of course some slight age differences, as the moult takes several months to complete (the primaries are moulted in two simultaneous waves).
No problem!
Last edited:
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Nikon Kid,
An amazing photo! You should be proud of it!
Keep on snapping, and post more!
An amazing photo! You should be proud of it!
Keep on snapping, and post more!
phil baber
Clipped Wing
Just keep on snappin Nikon! Delete the ones you don't like, 'n' send us the ones you do!
