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Azorean Gull (1 Viewer)

P

Peter Alfrey

Well-known member
Hi all,
I am hoping to solve some problems with the identification of Azorean Gull and have been looking for the best photo collections on the web of Atlantic and Yellow-legged Gulls.
I have posted some initials thoughts at http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/
and the links can be followed to more detailed pages for those who are interested.

Would appreciate any help in getting together the necessary information to try and solve the Atlantic/Azorean/Yellow-legged Gull problem.

Fingers croseed for some feedback.
Best regards
Peter
 
I have a photo of a YLG in my gallery, not saying it's the best on the web but if it's any use to you I have a few more of the same bird.

Were you around when the Didcot Azorean turned up? There were some excellent pics of this species in Birding World by Ian Lewington.
 
As you say Peter, LBBG is found in the Azores and would be the major problem in the identification process. LBBG and Azorean Gull are probably closely related. Some juveniles/1st winters even resembles smithsonianus. Yésou (2002) recomended the use of atlantis to birds breeding in the Azores. More to be said on this topic for sure.

Those first cycle atlanis on your site I would call atlantis for sure. However some michahellis surely is to be found as well.

Her´s a few atlantis (maybe some LBBG are lurking in there?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/tags/atlantic/

A few more:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/atlainx.html

JanJ
 
JANJ said:
As you say Peter, LBBG is found in the Azores and would be the major problem in the identification process. LBBG and Azorean Gull are probably closely related. Some juveniles/1st winters even resembles smithsonianus. Yésou (2002) recomended the use of atlantis to birds breeding in the Azores. More to be said on this topic for sure.

Those first cycle atlanis on your site I would call atlantis for sure. However some michahellis surely is to be found as well.

Her´s a few atlantis (maybe some LBBG are lurking in there?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/tags/atlantic/

A few more:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/atlainx.html

JanJ
Click to expand...

they look very similar but - closely related? according to helbig/liebers/knijf they are not more related than to any other of the argentatus/fuscus group. they are regarded as "ancestors" of european (nominate) michahellis while fuscus has evolved from a "pro-cachinnans" in the aralo-caspian basin over heuglini towards west when it finally got the form of graellsii which indeed has a lot of similarities to atlantis. but the presumed close relationship between these two (by meir i think) was refuted by this work, note especially figure 1 on page 2 with meyr's ringspecies model on the left and the new model by the authors with two refuges during glaciation.
 

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Thanks very much all,
that is great. It would be brilliant to get all the avialable links and information which are out there on this subject and get it all into one area, so we can go through it, digest it and come up with some diagnostics (looks like there is a fascinating taxanomic issue here too). A brilliant start. I've got a handful of personal emails with other links also so will get it altogether on some web space once it is all in.
Cheers
Peter
 
Azorean Gull images

JANJ said:
<snip>Her´s a few atlantis (maybe some LBBG are lurking in there?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/tags/atlantic/

A few more:

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull website/atlainx.html

JanJ
Click to expand...

Hi JanJ

The best link to Azorean Gull images on my Flickr site is:

www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/sets/72157619528301438/

There was one old first-winter LBBG caught up in the mix there which has now been correctly captioned (extremely similar plumage-wise to Azorean but structurally clearly L fuscus) - I'd be very interested to know if you feel any other images in this series relate to fuscus, and why.

I have some field notes of my own which, at some point, I hope to eventually get round to uploading with some images.

Best wishes

Dominic Mitchell
 
Well Dominic, I found them now, thanks for that!

I looked them over and a few set me of - being possible LBBG. Variability has to be considered however.

This one - (male?)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180403307/in/set-72157619528301438/ -

- although structurally would fit atlantis - but with a full set of juvenile coverts and scapulars by 13 Oct, where at least the juvenile scapulars perhaps is more in line with LBBG. In many pic. of juv/first winters atlantis shows less barring on the outer t-feathers but there´s enough overlap with LBBG making this feature reliable I think.

This one labbeled LBBG might in fact be atlantis despite the slender long looking rear.
However I´m not sure how to def exclude a LBBG. Although atlantis retain juvenile coverts throughout the first year, not all would do so.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180415059/in/set-72157619528301438/

I also had a look at Peters blog with many more links and suggestion since last I visited.

Good pic. Dominic -and you where no viser after this post due to problematics regarding the true identification of these, but we´ll see...

JanJ
 
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Yes, I would say that this one is probably a LBB for the reasons Jan says:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180403307/in/set-72157619528301438/
Interesting to see those shin pads which is often quoted as a feature of Azorean Gull, Martin Reid told me recently that shin pads are regular on many immature gulls and the significance on Azorean Gull is that this feature is retained longer (what's the cut off?).

And yes again, this bird is probably an Azorean Gull despite it's slender structure. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180415059/in/set-72157619528301438/

Some birds are 'more' indeterminate than these two examples- I've mixed up some LBB and Azorean Gull here (I think):
http://peteralfrey.blogspot.com/2010/03/lesser-black-backed-gull-problem.html

Cheers
Peter
 
Azorean Gull images

Hi Jan and Peter

Thanks for your replies. On these queried gulls:

1. www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180403307/in/set-72157619528301438/

I agree that by mid-October most first-cycle atlantis should have moulted their juvenile scapulars and be more first-winter-like in appearance. Birds with juv scaps are closer to the exception than the norm, but are not unknown - for other images of such individuals, see e.g. under 17 Oct at http://corvo2009.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html. To me, the bird in my image has a more atlantis-like feel than an LBBG, but I certainly wouldn't fight over it, and from this slightly awkward camera angle the jizz impression is probably less important than plumage detail.

2. www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180415059/in/set-72157619528301438/

This was the bird I referred to as originally captioned as an Azorean Gull, but though with extremely similar plumage I have since relabelled it as a Lesser Black-backed Gull. Ever since I spotted this in among a long sequence of Azorean Gull images taken at the same site on Sao Miguel last October and uploaded as a batch, I meant to recaption it as a first-calendar-year LBBG. Irrespective of plumage, I don't think I could sleep at night with this being an Azorean - the low gait, long wing point, head and bill shape and overall rather 'demure' structure don't sit so well with atlantis IMHO. As always, though, I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary.

I have enjoyed looking at hundreds of atlantis on the Azores over the years and many other large gulls there and (particularly) elsewhere, and have also benefited from Peter's advice before now on atlantis and confusion risks. It is at the same time both frustrating and refreshing to be baffled by occasional individuals on an ongoing basis. That, of course, is the challenge: the more you see, the less you realise you know (speaking for myself, of course!). One such other potential atlantis candidate, photographed in London last November, slipped away on a falling tide without me being able to get proper views of wing-tip pattern or even leg colour - see the two images at http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4138664859/.

And I definitely I need more spare time than I begin to have at the moment to try and analyse Peter's problem gulls on his link

Best wishes

Dominic
 
Hi Dominic,
Have a look at the comments under Olof's post- Peter Grant left a comment dated from October 20 2009!! :
http://corvo2009.blogspot.com/2009/10/buff-bellied-pipits.html

It would be good to get to the bottom of the overlap between LBB/ Azorean Gull and your second bird appears to fall into that category that needs sorting.
I will keep getting all the links together so we can all have a good look for the differences.
Peter
 
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Dominic & Peter.

I think Olof's gull could well be a LBBG - in fact that was my first impression (for what it´s worth).
However, as all LWHG - and of course including LBBG, some juveniles will keep the first generation scapulars and coverts for a longer period as would be expected.

Regarding Dominics first gull

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180403307/in/set-72157619528301438/

I´m not convinced of atlantis since LBBG is difficult to exclude, lack of duskiness to the plumage seems to 'clean' for atlantis combined with the angle of the bird in which the image is taken.

The other, however,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dominicmitchell/4180415059/in/set-72157619528301438/

is another one to bite. While structure, long narrow rear, might be in favour of LBBG, one can not help seeing some of the atlantis plumage feaures (it has that dusky look), and moult score, note many second generation coverts and tertials - which is not in line with LBBG at this time of year. If there only where some more images of it.

JanJ
 
Hi all,
I have been reading the Dorit Liebers et al papers for the last two/three weeks. If I understand correctly she has worked out that there is genetic differentiation between north and south 'atlantis' and that north 'atlantis' is the ancestor for both Armenian Gull and Yellow-legged Gull.
There is a map and my attempt at explaining it here:
http://peteralfreybirdingnotebook.blogspot.com/
I am not entirely sure I understand this all correctly as the papers are proper hardcore so would welcome comments/help.

Anyway, if we have a genetic underpinnig, it may be easier to work out what the plumage variation in these gulls means and help to look for where we should find diagnostic suites.

Regards
Peter
 
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