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Old Monday 19th April 2010, 16:56   #26
Kratter
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I think many AOU-CLC members do not require monophyly at the species level, although it does provide evidence that the lineages have been long separated and may have reproductive isolation. But some taxa can be be long separated but lack repro isolation even though they are not sister taxa anymore; e.g., California and Northern Raven pops are divergent in mtDNA, and may no longer be monophyletic (pops of Northern are closer to Chihuahuan Raven than to pops in California), but there does not seem to be differences in plumage, morphology, vocalizations, etc. Maybe all the genetic changes were 3rd-codon positions.

Once reproductive isolation has set in, then monophyly is the rule (i.e., taxa above species level).
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Old Monday 19th April 2010, 19:14   #27
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Is AOU-CLC the combination of NACC + SACC, or is it a synonym of NACC?

Anyway, the SACC recently voted to recognize Trinidad Motmot even though an (unpublished) DNA analysis shows it to be embedded in subrufescens, so one more example that monophyly is not always required at the species level.

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Old Monday 19th April 2010, 19:16   #28
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Synonym of NACC

SACC does appear in general, to be more liberal with their decisions than NACC...I was honestly surprised the major Motmot split occurred.
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Old Friday 28th January 2011, 11:41   #29
Peter Kovalik
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White-breasted Nuthatch

Quote:
Originally Posted by gusasp View Post
This is fun! Top 28, including Sibley's 10+4. My very own layman's rating.

1. Willet
2. Whip-poor-will (AOU proposal)
3. Winter Wren (AOU proposal passed)
4. (NEW) Mexican Duck (closer to Mottled than Mallard, IOC splits)
5. Yellow-rumped Warbler (IOC splits)
6. White-breasted Nuthatch
7...

Any thoughts?
Walstrom finds new bird species:
http://www.marysvilleonline.net/arti...0449075672.txt
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Old Friday 28th January 2011, 12:36   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
Building on this:
http://faculty.unlv.edu/jrodriguez/Spellman2007a.pdf

and this:
http://www.birdmeetings.org/cosaousc...bstractID=6223

Spellman's his supervisor. Four clades proposed, rather than four actual species as yet ...
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Old Friday 28th January 2011, 13:21   #31
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White-breasted Nuthatch

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Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
Presumably reflecting the four clades identified by Spellman & Klicka.

Spellman & Klicka 2007. Phylogeography of the white-breasted nuthatch (Sitta carolinensis): diversification in North American pine and oak woodlands. Mol Ecol 16(8): 1729-1740.
faculty.unlv.edu/jrodriguez/Spellman2007a.pdf
  1. Eastern Clade: carolinensis
  2. Pacific Clade: aculeata, alexandrae
  3. Eastern Sierra Nevada Clade: tenuissima
  4. Rocky Mountain, Great Basin & Mexico Clade: lagunae, mexicana, nelsoni
Grubb & Pravosudov 2008 (BNA Online) identifies three distinct "call groups" (following Sibley 2000), compatible with Klicka & Spellman:
  1. Eastern: carolinensis
  2. Central: lagunae, mexicana (incl 'kinneari'), nelsoni (incl 'oberholseri'), tenuissima
  3. Pacific: aculeata, alexandrae
    [Alderfer 2006 (Complete Birds of N America) notes that these may constitute 3 separate species.]
Cornell/Clements adopts a different grouping which conflicts with the Klicka & Spellman clades:
  1. Eastern: carolinensis
  2. Interior West: mexicana, kinneari, nelsoni, oberholseri
  3. Pacific: aculeata, alexandrae, lagunae, tenuissima
Richard

PS: Oops, missed David's post!

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 28th January 2011 at 20:58.
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Old Saturday 29th January 2011, 12:48   #32
David Callahan
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David Sibley's take on this:

http://www.sibleyguides.com/2011/01/...n-one-species/
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Old Saturday 29th January 2011, 12:49   #33
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Old Friday 23rd December 2011, 07:10   #34
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White-breasted Nuthatch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kovalik View Post
Walstrom, Klicka & Spellman (in press). Speciation in the White-breasted Nuthatch (Sitta carolinensis): a multilocus perspective. Mol Ecol. [abstract] [supp info]
Quote:
Conclusions
Mitochondrial (Spellman & Klicka 2007) and nuclear DNA data sets show the White-breasted Nuthatch is composed of four distinct evolutionary units (i.e. The Pacific, East, ESNNR [Eastern Sierra Nevada and Northern Rockies] and RGM [Rocky Mountain, Great Basin and Mexico]). ... Combining the genetic data (Spellman & Klicka 2007; this study) with previously identified differences in morphology (AOU 1957; Harrap & Quinn 1996; Phillips 1986; Grubb and Pravosudov 2008) and song (Sibley 2000; Alderfer 2006; Grubb and Pravosudov 2008) provides support for each of the four distinct evolutionary units to be recognized as separate species.
[Presumably Sitta aculeata, S carolinensis, S tenuissima, S lagunae.]

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 23rd December 2011 at 10:41. Reason: conclusions.
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Old Saturday 24th December 2011, 02:58   #35
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For S tenuissima should S. nelsoni Mearns, 1902 be used?
They have similar calls:
http://books.google.com/books?id=a73...201902&f=false .

http://sdnhm.org/ge_files/pdf/White-...20Nuthatch.pdf .

Ok I see S. nelsoni is not in the same group as S. tenuissima but with S. lagunae Brewster 1891.

Last edited by mb1848 : Saturday 24th December 2011 at 03:52.
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Old Saturday 24th December 2011, 10:44   #36
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White-breasted Nuthatch

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Originally Posted by mb1848 View Post
Ok I see S. nelsoni is not in the same group as S. tenuissima but with S. lagunae Brewster 1891.
Yes, nelsoni is described from the Huachuca Mountains, AZ, so well within the geographical range of the RGM clade.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 15:01   #37
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White-breasted Nuthatch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Walstrom, Klicka & Spellman (in press). Speciation in the White-breasted Nuthatch (Sitta carolinensis): a multilocus perspective. Mol Ecol. [abstract] [supp info]
[Presumably Sitta aculeata, S carolinensis, S tenuissima, S lagunae.]
Listed as proposed splits, candidates for addition to IOC World Bird List:
  • S carolinensis - White-breasted Nuthatch
  • S aculeata - Pacific Nuthatch
  • S tenuissima - Great Basin Nuthatch
  • S lagunae - Mexican Nuthatch
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-PS.html [updated 23 Mar 2012]

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 23rd March 2012 at 15:27.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 16:13   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Listed as proposed splits, candidates for addition to IOC World Bird List:
  • S carolinensis - White-breasted Nuthatch
  • S aculeata - Pacific Nuthatch
  • S tenuissima - Great Basin Nuthatch
  • S lagunae - Mexican Nuthatch
www.worldbirdnames.org/updates-PS.html [updated 23 Mar 2012]
*sigh* So another case of 'did you mean the old Whatsis Bird or the new Whatsis Bird' by retaining the name 'White-breasted Nuthatch' for the new, narrower species. Why not adopt a new name? 'Carolina Nuthatch' would be a no-brainer IMO.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 16:16   #39
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Quote:
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*sigh* So another case of 'did you mean the old Whatsis Bird or the new Whatsis Bird' by retaining the name 'White-breasted Nuthatch' for the new, narrower species. Why not adopt a new name? 'Carolina Nuthatch' would be a no-brainer IMO.
Completely agree with the first part. Which alternative name to adopt -- might be good with a few more thoughts.

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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 17:49   #40
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Yeah...I think giving a new name is appropriate, but I rather don't like Carolina Nuthatch. For some reason (perhaps because of where I got my lifer), I associate Carolina Nuthatch = Brown-headed Nuthatch

Fine with Pacific and Mexican, but I am not in favor of Great Basin. If I am reading this correctly, the range is much broader, and I wonder if Mountain or Rocky Mountain Might be a better name (Although open to alternatives)

For the eastern form, maybe Eastern? or is this more applicable to some of the East Asian forms? Really no clue here...
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 18:25   #41
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Sycamore nuthatch? Not perfect, but has a nice ring to it.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 19:55   #42
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Sycamore nuthatch? Not perfect, but has a nice ring to it.
American planetree Nuthatch? Sycamore has other meanings outside of North America.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steffro1/5592113430 .

I like for the name of the eastern bird Catesby's Nuthatch. Sitta carolinensis Latham is based on Brisson who based it on Catesby’s Sitta capite nigro Natural History Carolina, Florida, and Bahaman islands I, 1753 p. 22, pl. 22 .

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypld...=20&pos=26&e=w .

Last edited by mb1848 : Friday 23rd March 2012 at 20:12. Reason: more
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 20:49   #43
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I agree that retaining "White-breasted" for the eastern bird is madness. Almost anything else is preferable. On a par with SACC's Tristan Penguin.

cheers, alan
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 20:50   #44
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Fine with Pacific and Mexican, but I am not in favor of Great Basin. If I am reading this correctly, the range is much broader, and I wonder if Mountain or Rocky Mountain Might be a better name (Although open to alternatives)

For the eastern form, maybe Eastern? or is this more applicable to some of the East Asian forms? Really no clue here...
“Eastern” would be fine by me (cf. - Bluebird, - Kingbird, - Wood-Pewee). I had actually listed it as Eastern White-breasted Nuthatch, which is quite cumbersome. For Asia “Oriental” is available in the not entirely hypothetical case some eastern nuthatch needs to be split.
I used “Interior” for tenuissima.

Is splitting Mexican and Great Basin not a bit over the top though? The split is not that old and mixed haplotypes occur in the same population... (e.g. in the Black Hills, where I've seen it!)

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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 21:05   #45
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White-breasted Nuthatch

Wrt my (rather presumptuous) post #37, the IOC World Bird Names website doesn't explicitly state that Sitta carolinensis sensu stricto would retain the name White-breasted Nuthatch...

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 23rd March 2012 at 21:16.
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Old Friday 23rd March 2012, 21:39   #46
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I believe it's Mexican that is poorly named as far as extent of range goes - it's the one that goes right up the Rocky Mountains into southern Canada! Great Basin is at least more restricted, even if Mexican is also found in some of the southern Great Basin (in the geographical sense).
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Old Saturday 24th March 2012, 08:09   #47
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White-breasted Nuthatch

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Originally Posted by Snapdragyn View Post
I believe it's Mexican that is poorly named as far as extent of range goes - it's the one that goes right up the Rocky Mountains into southern Canada! Great Basin is at least more restricted, even if Mexican is also found in some of the southern Great Basin (in the geographical sense).
Yes, 'Mexican Nuthatch' Sitta lagunae represents the RGM (Rocky Mountain, Great Basin and Mexico) clade.

'Great Basin Nuthatch' Sitta tenuissima represents the ESNNR (Eastern Sierra Nevada and Northern Rockies) clade.

Last edited by Richard Klim : Saturday 24th March 2012 at 11:38.
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Old Saturday 24th March 2012, 09:14   #48
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“Eastern” would be fine by me (cf. - Bluebird, - Kingbird, - Wood-Pewee).
Forgive a European, but I feel there's way too much americism going on here. The comparison with the bluebirds, kingbirds and wood-pewees halter. They're all restricted to the Americas, the nuthatches are definitely not. "Eastern" is therefore just dead wrong. If "Eastern" ever occurs as a modifier to a cosmopolitan bird group (and not part of a dichotomy), it refers to the Orient (Eastern Curlew, for instance).
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Old Saturday 24th March 2012, 10:24   #49
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I feel most of us are going to presume that Great Basin Nuthatch prefers some kind of aquatic habitats...
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Old Saturday 24th March 2012, 11:15   #50
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I feel most of us are going to presume that Great Basin Nuthatch prefers some kind of aquatic habitats...
Strange? The Great Basin conjures images of arid badlands and sagebrush. It is an established geographic feature of western North America.

Carlos
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