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Marsh Warbler? (1 Viewer)

ignoring the date factor, it looks a lot like Marsh Warbler. taking account of it, could be an early bird, and my money is still on Marsh.
 
Can the pro-marsh people explain why please? Mimicking Reed Warblers are mistaken for Marsh every year in UK, and are much commoner than Marsh themselves.
 
Marsh for me. In Central Poland, where I'm familiar with them, many are usually back on territory by the 2nd week of May. I therefore see no problem date-wise here. The upperparts are cold toned, with no apparent rufous tones. The eyering predominates over the super. The terts and 2ndaries are clearly light-edged. I can count 8 exposed primary tips. Again with distinct light edgings. Aside from this? The whole jizz of this bird strongly suggests Marsh to me.
 
Can the pro-marsh people explain why please? Mimicking Reed Warblers are mistaken for Marsh every year in UK, and are much commoner than Marsh themselves.

Can you perhaps give a break-down on why it is a Reed? You don't have to. Just thought it might balance things out? Not that you said it was one of course! And I'm not being contentious.

Nice photos BTW Jeff!
 
I also personally find that while Reeds do indeed mimick, they do so without the preciseness or regularity of Marsh
 
Hi Phil,
Can you perhaps give a break-down on why it is a Reed? You don't have to. Just thought it might balance things out? Not that you said it was one of course! And I'm not being contentious.

At the risk of being somewhat pedantic, might I point out that, as Reed Warbler is by far the commonest possibility, and as this would be on the early side for Marsh Warbler (but after the arrival of the bulk of the Reed Warbler population), then a sensible opening position is to assume that it's a Reed and try to disprove this hypothesis?
In trying to do so, I find it extremely hard to exclude Reed: while not foolproof, many of the features that I would instinctively look for in pics, such as the (approximate) position of the emargination on the third primary, are not visible, at least not with any certainty, and some features seem to look better for Marsh in some pics than in others. For example, the head pattern that looks so good in a few pics, with an apparently contrasting supraloral (almost on a par with a Blyth's Reed), looks distinctly less impressive at http://www.brandonbirding.co.uk/marshwarbler/slides/MarshWarbler11.asp, with the eye-ring seeming to dominate the facial pattern more than the supercilium, a pro-Reed feature. The claws, as can be seen, seem longer than one would like for a 'classic' Marsh, but perhaps the apparent length is misleading: nevertheless, questions are raised. The bill could perhaps be a little long and thin for Marsh, but the angle does not allow this to be judged properly, the primary projection could fit either species, and, as a result, I find myself wondering if this may actually be a Reed, even if proving this could prove tough...
Regards,
Harry
 
Hi Phil,


At the risk of being somewhat pedantic, might I point out that, as Reed Warbler is by far the commonest possibility, and as this would be on the early side for Marsh Warbler (but after the arrival of the bulk of the Reed Warbler population), then a sensible opening position is to assume that it's a Reed and try to disprove this hypothesis?
In trying to do so, I find it extremely hard to exclude Reed: while not foolproof, many of the features that I would instinctively look for in pics, such as the (approximate) position of the emargination on the third primary, are not visible, at least not with any certainty, and some features seem to look better for Marsh in some pics than in others. For example, the head pattern that looks so good in a few pics, with an apparently contrasting supraloral (almost on a par with a Blyth's Reed), looks distinctly less impressive at http://www.brandonbirding.co.uk/marshwarbler/slides/MarshWarbler11.asp, with the eye-ring seeming to dominate the facial pattern more than the supercilium, a pro-Reed feature. The claws, as can be seen, seem longer than one would like for a 'classic' Marsh, but perhaps the apparent length is misleading: nevertheless, questions are raised. The bill could perhaps be a little long and thin for Marsh, but the angle does not allow this to be judged properly, the primary projection could fit either species, and, as a result, I find myself wondering if this may actually be a Reed, even if proving this could prove tough...
Regards,
Harry


Exactly.

But this is a forum. So, open for all input..

And those neat pale fringes to the remiges are soooo tempting!

Harry, check the rear crown, and the head shape also?

These are good photos. Check the rump. Where does the rufous infuse the brown anywhere on the up/parts?

I take a different standpoint here, leaning towards Marsh.

I would enjoy someone's foolproof Reed ID on this bird.

But no-one has offered that?


Never seen a Reed with such pale defined edges to the remiges?

But, maybe I've missed out?

Would welcome a Ringer's view on this, but I'm set on Marsh for this bird. Song, or no song...

Happy Birding!
 
"with the eye-ring seeming to dominate the facial pattern more than the supercilium, a pro-Reed feature."

Surely a Marsh feature?
 
Oh! And hand on heart?

Who can say they have had the luxury of checking this detail in the field?

"such as the (approximate) position of the emargination on the third primary, are not visible, at least not with any certainty, and some features seem to look better for Marsh in some pics than in others..."

That seems to have made its way into field guides from Ringing Manuals? It is NOT a viable field -character IMHO. Of no use, unless one has mist-netted the subject, and has had the luxury of checking feather tracts, etc. in minutiae!

2nd Collins is guilty of promoting this as a viable field character!

In photos this is difficult to assess also. Unless they show a wing-spread in a ringer's hand!

I remain in the Marsh camp. With description of song fuelling my opinion.
 
I give a few reasons, why it's not Marsh warbler in my mind:

e.g.

- the longest tertial not longer than secondaries (MW's longest tertial is longer than secondaries in fresh plumage).
http://www.brandonbirding.co.uk/marshwarbler/slides/MarshWarbler10.asp
Compare to Marsh W : http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa/Acrris290503Saltfjarden1.jpg
- no whitish tips in primaries (MW has usually a clear and visible whitish tips in fresh primaries),

- bird has clearly greyish head and warmer (brown) back and rump > worn bird (Reed moults earlier than Marsh on the average, usually adults starts in august, younger birds later)
 
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