[Nature__lover]

Originally Posted by woodpeckerwacko

Down with the European Starlings, down with the Rock Doves (a.k.a. City Pigeons) and down with the House Sparrows !
All very invasive in my part of the world.

:O wow.
I just can't dislike any creature. It can't help what it is and what it's not. Human beings are the most invasive species in the world, surely? I mean, the damage we have done to planet Earth is unbelievable. And there are so many of use, we never know- maybe pigeons think of us as pests!

[Geoff Brown]

I agree with a lot of the views expressed. It is we humans who are the biggest pests. When we are extinct the flora and fauna that remains will have a much better chance of survival.

[jpscloud]

"My" colony of house sparrows, which are noisy, naughty (they flutter at the goldfinches and try to dislodge them from the feeders!) and VERY messy on the feeders, spitting bucketloads of precious sunflower hearts on the ground... are a constant delight and never fail to lift my spirits.

Starlings behave like a gang of rowdy teenagers in my garden but I love them and the other birds seem to tolerate them well with a bit of strategic food placing. They're clever and funny and very beautiful.

I don't think of any creature as a pest in my garden any more, even the snails that chomp their way through anything remotely snail-palatable (and several things that shouldn't be!) - more food for thrushes!

[Joe1980]

My solution to the House Sparrows tossing seed out, is to give them tray feeders. I think they enjoy throwing seed down, so they can eat it from the ground. I don't care much for that especially in winter, because the seed will get buried in the snow and hence wasted. That's why I gave the little fellas their tray feeder.

[jpscloud]

Originally Posted by Joe1980

My solution to the House Sparrows tossing seed out, is to give them tray feeders. I think they enjoy throwing seed down, so they can eat it from the ground. I don't care much for that especially in winter, because the seed will get buried in the snow and hence wasted. That's why I gave the little fellas their tray feeder.

I used a tray feeder but found that pigeons and doves would mob it and not bother to eat the seeds off the ground. My feeding pole has a distinct list to the right after they spent merry hours swinging on the tray!

I'll sort out a more robust arrangement one day...

[Brian.Hart]

There are 3 species that fit this category for me, because they threaten other species. Two are non-native, European Starling and House Sparrow, and one is native, Cowbird. It has been proven over and over again by science that these three species are playing a large role in endangering any number of our smaller indigenous songbirds.
Is it their fault? No, absolutely not! But that doesn't change the fact that if their numbers are not controlled, they will help (us) push a lot of other species into extinction. They are God's creatures, too, but because of the artificial imbalances that we have created, they are out-competing other species, and if left unchecked, will greatly contribute to the loss of other species. Sticking our heads in the sand won't change that.
This past summer I was in Milwaulkee visiting some friends, and I couldn't help but notice that the only birds in their residential neighborhood were Starlings, House Sparrows, and a few Grackles. Is that what we want?
Cowbirds, being a native species are protected by law, and therefore I can't do anything about. Starlings and House Sparrows, being non-native and not protected, I dispatch with regularity. It's not a matter of hating or despising them, simply keeping their numbers down to give our endangered/threatened species a fighting chance.
While it is true that the decline in many species is almost entirely our fault, invasive species are a serious threat that has to be dealt with along with doing everything else we can to bring back our endangered/threatened species. Things like restoring habitat, controlling invasive plant species, etc. are all more desirable ways to help them, but those are things that the average person doesn't give a hoot about.
Hopefully someday thinning the flocks of undesirables will no longer be necessary, but I doubt it will be in my lifetime. People just don't care enough to do what it takes. They only want "feel-good" solutions to everything that don't involve any sacrifice on their own part. It's the dark side of the human condition, and one of the things that has made us so successful as a species;
unadulterated selfishness.
Sorry for the rant,
Brian

[James Bean]

Well, 'Limper' made it to 2011. He came today, surveyed the food available, partook of some sponge cake left over from Christmas, and wolfed down several peanuts in their shells, so he's still the champion gulper! I may be mistaken, but his limp didn't seem such an impediment either, so perhaps that's on the mend. He may be 'flying vermin' to many people, and I can understand why this view persists in certain situations, yet I confess looking forward to his irregular visits and a determination to 'see him through' the colder days of December (the first proper 'White Christmas' we've had here for years). The day after Boxing Day brought a widespread thaw, so for birds the living is now much easier...

[AnotherNightOwl]

Originally Posted by Nature__lover

Human beings are the most invasive species in the world, surely? I mean, the damage we have done to planet Earth is unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Geoff Brown

It is we humans who are the biggest pests. When we are extinct the flora and fauna that remains will have a much better chance of survival.

I agree with you both 100%.

On some birds being pests, I disagree. I welcome ALL birds into my garden.

[Joe1980]

I grew up in Milwaukee, WI, and I can tell you that if you take away the starlings and house sparrows, all you'd have left is those few grackles. Native birds are LONG gone from the big city, and the stralings and sparrows aren't the ones who pushed them out, they merely moved into the available space. The birds people call pests are a lot of times the only birds people in the big cities have, and without them, they'd have nothing at all. You can kill all the "pest" birds you want, but there will always be real estate available for them, that of course we humans make available. I hold nothing against a person from doing what they feel they gotta do. Personally, as said before, I don't feel that if I put bird feeders out, that I should beable to play God and decide which of his creatures should live and die. The only thing I'll do is discourage certain birds (mourning doves recently) by leaving out the food they like, so they move on. Killing birds because you don't want them in your yard to me is unfair, and not an option for me.

[jpscloud]

Originally Posted by James Bean

Well, 'Limper' made it to 2011. He came today, surveyed the food available, partook of some sponge cake left over from Christmas, and wolfed down several peanuts in their shells, so he's still the champion gulper! I may be mistaken, but his limp didn't seem such an impediment either, so perhaps that's on the mend. He may be 'flying vermin' to many people, and I can understand why this view persists in certain situations, yet I confess looking forward to his irregular visits and a determination to 'see him through' the colder days of December (the first proper 'White Christmas' we've had here for years). The day after Boxing Day brought a widespread thaw, so for birds the living is now much easier...

Well done James, I've been following the fortunes of Limper, and I'm glad he's made it! Maybe he should have his own thread...

[cates]

Originally Posted by James Bean

Pigeons are birds too... although I confess that when their daily numbers reached more than two dozen I began to regard them as pests, despite their wide variety of markings and colours being greater than any other bird species I've seen regularly. Recently their typical flocks have fallen to about 15, which is perhaps more tolerable. Strangely, I do not see any Starlings whatsoever, but in my back garden I have eight cheeky Sparrows who love to steal food from under the beaks of the hoovering Pigeons, in a sort of David and Goliath battle of wits. One poor Pigeon has a bad right foot and can only limp and totter from one food source to another, yet its flying is unaffected. Most of the time it sits alone on the end ridge tile of my garage, sometimes appearing forlorn but otherwise just patiently looking for a rare chance in the pecking order. It was his lucky day today, because I waited for all the other Pigeons to depart and then gently threw out a large handful of small peanuts which he consumed all by himself with much relish. I'd made his day, and he'd made mine...

hi, pigeons' feet; you see terrible examples in many of our towns. i don't know about this particular bird because i didn't see it. the main problem, i put down to everyone feeding the birds with bread. bread contains vast amounts of yeast, the birds eat the bread, crap all over their ledges, they then stand in this muck all night long. ingesting yeast, standing in the mess; it's no wonder our pigeons are all criples. there needs to be one big education for those who feed pigeons with bread; don't do it.

[Joe1980]

Ingesting yeast and standing in the mess?? Sounds like a loooooong night of drinking beer......

[fugl]

I’ve read “bread is bad for birds” a hundred times on BF & elsewhere (e.g. on park signage, where it’s a favorite topic) but have never seen any scientific evidence in support. I think many people just don’t like big crowds of tame birds because of the mess they create or for alleged “health” reasons.

There’s a big flock of several hundred Rock Pigeons in a Reno park I visit regularly which as far as I can see live almost exclusively on the bread etc that people bring to feed the ducks. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a healthier bunch of birds.

[Joe1980]

I've also read in several books on bird feeding and backyard birds, that bread is NOT bad for birds. It isn't the most nutritious thing, because it isn't packed with fats and proteins that birds need, but none-the-less, it isn't going to hurt them either. It's a tasty snack for them, and many appreciate it. When it comes to pigeons, it doesn't matter what you feed them, they will wallow in their own filth anyway. They are a true example of a filthy bird. I'm not saying they're bad, just filthy. Bread, seeds, french fries, table scraps, crackers, or whatever they eat, they'll drop their dueces all over, and stand there in it like a child with a hot one in their diaper.

[fugl]

Originally Posted by Joe1980

. . .When it comes to pigeons, it doesn't matter what you feed them, they will wallow in their own filth anyway. They are a true example of a filthy bird. I'm not saying they're bad, just filthy. Bread, seeds, french fries, table scraps, crackers, or whatever they eat, they'll drop their dueces all over, and stand there in it like a child with a hot one in their diaper.

Well, I guess what it boils down to is that I like pigeons & you don’t. The ones I see in my suburban neighborhood & at city & country parks appear to me to be no more “filthy” in their habits than any other bird. And if it’s the droppings that bother you, you must really hate Canada Geese.

[dryseals]

I had a wood pecker once decide that the tin hat on the chimney was a good spot to tap out his territory song every morning at 7:00. But he couldn't top the Great Blue Heron feeding in the gold fish pond..............

[Joe1980]

I never said I don't like pigeons, I just think they are dirty. The place I work at is a historic building, built in 1906. It's a factory, and in the front is offices. There's 5 floors, and only the 1st and 2nd used to be used, and the upper floors had broken windows. Anywho, the pigeons used to hang out up there, and there was literally 6" of pigeon poop covering everything. Those birds just sat in there own poop for years, and lemme tell ya, it was terrible. And the geese, they are even worse. At my old house, I lives next to a retention pond, and there'd be literally 100's of geese. I had to chicken fence my yard to keep them out. Neighbor's driveways were covered in a layer of asphalt, and not the kind that makes roads.

All in all, I'm not demonizing any birds, because if you read back, you'll see I support the birds others demonize. I'm just saying some are definately filthy in large numbers.

[cates]

Originally Posted by Joe1980

I've also read in several books on bird feeding and backyard birds, that bread is NOT bad for birds. It isn't the most nutritious thing, because it isn't packed with fats and proteins that birds need, but none-the-less, it isn't going to hurt them either. It's a tasty snack for them, and many appreciate it. When it comes to pigeons, it doesn't matter what you feed them, they will wallow in their own filth anyway. They are a true example of a filthy bird. I'm not saying they're bad, just filthy. Bread, seeds, french fries, table scraps, crackers, or whatever they eat, they'll drop their dueces all over, and stand there in it like a child with a hot one in their diaper.

yeast causes all kinds of fugual problems in humans; there are a good many medical papers written on this subject. in pigeons i've seen, as an example, in hitchin town centre hundreds of birds hobling around on clubbed feet; in really bad cases their feet have been eaten away altogether. i can only assume, seeing everyone out there feeding them on bread, that the situation's not helped, if not actually caused by this diet. club-foot is a serious and i would think very painful fungual disease; as in many cases it's not necessarily provable but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed.

[fugl]

Originally Posted by cates

. . . i can only assume, seeing everyone out there feeding them on bread, that the situation's not helped, if not actually caused by this diet. club-foot is a serious and i would think very painful fungual disease; as in many cases it's not necessarily provable but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed.

People “assume” lots of things, but that doesn’t make them true. Just because club foot sometimes occurs among pigeons which eat a lot of bread, is no evidence for bread causing (or even abetting) the condition. Some other factor or factors associated with life in city squares & such places could be implicated instead, & the only way to find out is properly conducted scientific study. As I said in a previous post, there’s a very healthy looking flock of pigeons in a city park near me which (as far as I can tell) feeds exclusively on bread, stale pastries & the rest with no apparent ill effects. Many people--particularly young children--enjoy tossing scraps to pigeons & waterfowl in public parks & before I’d stop my family from doing so I’d need to see some solid evidence that it’s harmful.

[AnotherNightOwl]

Originally Posted by dryseals

I had a wood pecker once decide that the tin hat on the chimney was a good spot to tap out his territory song every morning at 7:00.

Reading this made me laugh ... must have drove you nuts though ...

[Apodemus]

Yeast is killed off at about 106 degrees, less than the temperature at which bread is baked. If pigeons are picking up yeast infections, it's not the yeast in the bread that's causing it.

[Joe1980]

It's the beer they're drinking causing the yeast infections!

Anyways, Fugl, I smiled when I read your post about children feeding the waterfowl. Although I'm not a child (some would argue that), I am reminded of a job I ran (I'm an electrician) that was on the riverwalk in Milwaukee, WI. Everyday for break and lunch I would sit at the rivers edge, and toss crackers to the ducks. I really enjoyed going to work to feed those ducks, and it wasn't long before my crew of 6 was also entertained by the ducks. I would love to have somewhere near home to sit and throw crackers to ducks, and share the experience with my daughters, but I live in the boonies, actually 1/2 mile from a wildlife refuge, and all the birds are affraid of people.

[dryseals]

Originally Posted by AnotherNightOwl

Reading this made me laugh ... must have drove you nuts though ...

It did.

Our chimney is about 40 feet tall, the echo coming down in the morning rang through out the house. If I didn't love my birds........

[Joe1980]

I had a Northern Flicker who did this to me one spring, banging on the furnace flue. I'm guessing he found his woman he was trying to attract, because it suddenly stopped, and I had 2 of them hanging around.

[James Bean]

I'm worried about 'Limper'. Although he's visited my back garden each of the last three days, and at first seemed quite buoyant in his demeanour, especially after gobbling more than his fair share of peanuts and fat ball, even mixing with the less encumbered throng, today he appeared more timid, less agile, actually falling over backwards at one point. I have never seen a bird do that before! After a new fall of snow a few days ago, it has now cleared and is relatively warm and dry, so that's no longer an impediment, although his right leg still may be, since he was 'slow on the uptake' when competing with others for food, reluctant to use that limb at times, and otherwise remaining aloof on the roof. I shall endeavour to continue providing pastoral care, whenever he avails himself of it.
Note: attached pictures taken before the weekend, 20x zoom through double glazing, so quality barely adequate (Canon A700).
P.S. Thanks "jpscloud" for your interest and comments, following Limper's progress so far...