Lesser Whitethroat ssp? (1 Viewer)

Hello,

i know this might be next to impossible, but if anybody has anything usefull to say it would be great.

So we find this rather pale and skulking LWt 24th October from Säppi-island SW-Finland. We trapped and ringed it. It didn't call nor replied to tape play.

Measurements (mm):

wing max 65,0
3rd primary 48,4
tail 57,6
bill to skull 10,6
bill to feathering 7,2-7,3
T6 white on inner web 27,0

wingtip p4 counting inwards
p2 4,2 (shorter than p4)
p3 0,5
p4 0
p5 0,5
p6 2,0
p7 5,0
p8 7,8
p9 9,1
p10 10,5

Pics are too big for BF so they're in my blog.

i thought if you were asking if it iwas a common or lesser......i replied lesser but i think you want to what sub-species it is which is something way out of my league.

Himalaya said:

i thought if you were asking if it iwas a common or lesser......i replied lesser but i think you want to what sub-species it is which is something way out of my league.

Click to expand...

Yes, subspecies/race is what i'm interested about. I know that subspecies are thought to be clinal and thus really hard/impossible to tell apart for sure in vagrant context. Any comments still highly apriciated!

I don't know much about eastern races, but the colouration of the upperparts seems to fit a halimodendri-type individual (rather than nominate), as the mantle is pretty warmish brown and a brownish component extends diffusively over the nape and crown.

Here's a halimodendri-type bird from Sweden for comparison:
http://hem.fyristorg.com/nonne/Artsangare.html

Can't comment on the tail pattern, but here's the tail of a juvenile halimodendri:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/SylcurKI6W3324.jpg

Did you take a feather sample for DNA-analysis?

You are asking the impossible.

Yours looks short-winged, but not as short winged as the really distinctive ones

really short winged...
minula & presumed minula
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/desert_lesser_whitethroat_av.jpg
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/lesserwhitethroat.jpg

and blythi
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/siberian_lesser_whitetroath_blythi_28052003_kz.jpg

More like yours
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/lesser_whitethroat_1ss.jpg

CAU said:

Did you take a feather sample for DNA-analysis?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately we didn't. We were suppose to but the bird was released too early by accident... pro-stuff

Jane Turner said:

You are asking the impossible.

Yours looks short-winged, but not as short winged as the really distinctive ones

really short winged...
minula & presumed minula
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/desert_lesser_whitethroat_av.jpg
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/lesserwhitethroat.jpg

and blythi
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/siberian_lesser_whitetroath_blythi_28052003_kz.jpg

More like yours
http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/lesser_whitethroat_1ss.jpg

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think "typical" minula could be ruled out based on biometrics alone.

I am not that sure that individual S. curruca ssp can be identified with certainty in the field without DNA evidence. Experiences with four different wintering or late migrating birds in Holland and Belgium sequenced by me the last few years were certainly not very convincing. One might even say disturbingly puzzling.
Based on these experiences it seems crucial to catch as many of these birds as possible and collect a few feathers for further DNA studies. A very large one is ongoing but not yet completed, also partly based on birds wintering in Western Europe (including the UK). The combination of detailed biometry, good photographic documentation and in-depth DNA studies will, hopefully, lead to a better ability to identify these birds in the future.
Based on current knowledge, any ssp identification of birds seen over here is speculative at best.
Obviously no good reason not to study and discuss them in detail, but you better be warned.

mäkpe said:

Hello,

i know this might be next to impossible, but if anybody has anything usefull to say it would be great.

So we find this rather pale and skulking LWt 24th October from Säppi-island SW-Finland. We trapped and ringed it. It didn't call nor replied to tape play.

Measurements (mm):

wing max 65,0
3rd primary 48,4
tail 57,6
bill to skull 10,6
bill to feathering 7,2-7,3
T6 white on inner web 27,0

wingtip p4 counting inwards
p2 4,2 (shorter than p4)
p3 0,5
p4 0
p5 0,5
p6 2,0
p7 5,0
p8 7,8
p9 9,1
p10 10,5

Pics are too big for BF so they're in my blog.

Click to expand...

Hi, I looked at the blog....I don't read Finnish all that well...(m.m mitä 'atrapointiyritys?' tarkoittaa?), but I really think it's a common whitethroat (pensaskerttu), koska kertulla on se valkoinen silmärengas jossa on ne oikein pienet täplät. Mutta...lintu kuvassasi ei ole mustakeskisia olkasulia. It's a mystery!
Andy.