[Fulmar]

Is it possible to distinguish between the Intermediate Egret Egretta (or Mesophoyx) intermedia and the Great Egret Ardea alba on photos when you don't have a clue on size?

Charles Harper (thanks!) gave a good description in the Bird Database:

In distinguishing this species from Great Egret, notice particularly how Intermediate`s gape stops at the rear of the eye, while Great`s extends farther back, and how the feathered chin of Intermediate extends farther forward along the gonys. The shorter bill also gives Intermediate`s head a more triangular look than the attenuated snake-like head of Great Egret. Legs evidently occur in a range of shades from black to dark yellow.

However, even with this description, I still have trouble to distinguish between the Intermediate Egret photos in the Gallery (http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...rmediate+Egret) and the Great Egret (e.g. http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...hp/photo/24320).

Can somebody direct me to the finer details here?

Thanks,
Peter

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Peter,

From my books, GE has bare skin going a little behind the eye, IE doesn't. This obviously requires a good close view!

Michael

[Fulmar]

Michael Frankis says:

GE has bare skin going a little behind the eye, IE doesn't

Hi Michael,

But on the photos in the links I gave, I don't see a difference in that respect, or is it me??

Peter

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Peter,

See what you mean . . . I can't either!

Maybe my book's wrong . . .

Michael

[cuckooroller]

Hi Peter,
I just had a look at the Intermediates that you linked and have issues with the first two that have both a kinky neck and not just the S-shaped that the intermediate should have. Moreover, in both the gape line appears to extend past the posterior eye canthus and they should not. The other three are definitely intermediates and the Great Egret that you linked is just that. I tried to figure these two out by just downloading a bunch of for-sure intermediates and great egret and comparing them side-by-side for a while. If the gape line extends past the posterior eye canthus it should not be Mesophoyx (Intermediate Egret). The neck is S-shaped in the Intermediate and never shows that strange kink in the upper neck of the Great Egret. The beak of the Great is extremely long and affusolate and if you compare the two there is a decided difference. One thing that usually stands me in good stead is the length of the neck compared with the body length (i.e. immagining that you have just cut off the neck and are only looking at the thorax back to the retrices. If you can imagine the outstretched neck included the head and beak of the Great Egret and kind of superimpose it on the rest of the body - the body is noticeably shorter. In the Intermediate it is about the same length.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Peter,
Like Steve(Cuckooroller),I too would question the proposed identification of some of those 'Intermediate' Egrets,believing them,in fact,to be Great Whites!True Intermediates have a distinctive combination of shorter bill and 'jowled' appearance due to feathering extending further along the lower mandible:this gives an almost Cattle Egret-like appearance.See the photo attached:
http://www.amazilia.net/images/Birds...teEgret_01.JPG
As Steve says,Great White has a far longer and more kinked neck(serpentine in appearance).
Hope this helps?
Harry

[Sumit]

Does this help?
Image on the left is Intermediate, Great on the right.
Cheers!
Sumit

[MikeMules]

Originally Posted by Harry Hussey

Hi Peter,
Like Steve(Cuckooroller),I too would question the proposed identification of some of those 'Intermediate' Egrets,believing them,in fact,to be Great Whites!

Ditto. They look like Great Whites to me. I've generally found the neck and facial skin combination a reliable way to identify, and those that I can't see properly just go down as egret spp.

[Fulmar]

Thank you all for investigating this!

The doubts that most of you have about the validity of the "Intermediate" labelled Egrets in the Gallery explains probably why I didn't see the "differences". Now knowing this I did a quick search on the internet and found the following statement:

Intermediate has shorter bill and lacks the Great Egret's obvious neck kink. Intermediate has short bill, no obvious neck kink, no breeding plumes on its nape (only on breast).

If those breeding plume statement is correct, then I conclude that there is only one real Intermediate Egret photo in the Gallery, being the last one.

Another useful site is this Korean one, where they have comparison photos of the Intermediate, Great and Little Egret:
http://knusun.kangnung.ac.kr/~subbio...-06/page02.htm
Especially the head comparison shows the shorter gape of the Intermediate (photo B) compared with the Great Egret (photos B and C).

Would you agree with my conclusion?

Peter

[Edward woodwood]

both occured on my local patch in Jakarta and over two years got quite good at them and did them mostly on general appearance and behaviour - Intermediate always looked much more like Little to me perversely, stockier than great and necks never so long, thin and snaky and often they were in more secluded spots - gape feature was only useful at close range. For what it's worth Intermediates were the only egrets i ever heard call - not often by any means though.....
photos can be tricky but a couple of mins in the field and it should be obvious

[mikesimpson]

Yes, I had already been advised that the picture I posted as an Intermediate was actually a Great Egret, I had intended to relabel the picture but forgot about it.

It was also pointed out to me that the Intermediate was unlikely to be found in Salt water, more likely in fresh.

Mike.

p.s. I have now relabelled the picture in the gallery.

[Edward woodwood]

yes Mike, I noticed that too....my Intermediates in 'secluded' spots were almost all freshwater.....

[Neil]

I had better wade in as most of these photos are mine. The first photo should now be labelled a Great Egret although there still is some disagreement at our local wetlands. The gape on this bird was covered on one side by facial feathers and it looked a small bird, but a small Great is only a little bigger than a small Intermediate. A rule of thumb I use is that the Great's neck is about 1.5x the body length , whereas the Intermediate's neck is about the same length as it's body. Sorry about the confusion. Here in Sydney the Intermediates are nearly almost seen on their own whereas the Great is often seen with a Little Egret in the area. I've never seen a Great and Intermediate together outside breeding season.
In breeding plumage my field guide says Intermediates bill/legs flush rose red , Great bill black, both have pea-green facial skin , so the third photo (second of mine should also be Intermediate).
In the fourth photo the gape doesn't appear to extend back far enough and there is no obvious kink in the neck. The head also looks more rounded. Uncertain.
Fifth photo - Greats don't have erectile plumes (aigrette) on the chest only the back,and black legs. This bird seems to have them on the chest and has pink legs so should be Intermediate.
I hope others have comments on these as I'm no expert and I've only been watching these guys for about 3 years.
Neil

[Fulmar]

Hi Neil,

I found a new reference (Handbook of the Birds of the World Vol.1) for the breeding plumes of the Intermediate Egret. It makes it clear now that the quote that I gave earlier about the breeding plumes is not correct, the Intermediate is illustrated with plumes both at the breast and at the back!

I have also checked a number of photos in the Gallery of Great Egrets in breeding plumage (with the green lores and plumes on the back) and I have not seen one with the reddish bill colors as your Jan17 close-up photo has.

So I have to change my mind and I'm with you on the IDs. Recapitulating: your May19 and Mike's photo are then Great Egrets, your Jan17 photo is Intermediate (based on the bill color), your Nov16 is also Intermediate (based on the gape, the shorter neck, and because it looks as having plumes on the breast), and your Sep17 is an Intermediate too (this one was never doubted).

When I will ever visit Australia, I would at least be able to distinguish between these two

Peter

[Dan drough]

The Great Egret has a prominent kink in its neck (like a cobra about to strike!).

Originally Posted by Fulmar

Is it possible to distinguish between the Intermediate Egret Egretta (or Mesophoyx) intermedia and the Great Egret Ardea alba on photos when you don't have a clue on size?

Charles Harper (thanks!) gave a good description in the Bird Database:

However, even with this description, I still have trouble to distinguish between the Intermediate Egret photos in the Gallery (http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...rmediate+Egret) and the Great Egret (e.g. http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...hp/photo/24320).

Can somebody direct me to the finer details here?

Thanks,
Peter

[wengchun]

well. i have spotted a big egret recently in a freshwater wetland. it was all alone -solitary. could this be a great egret or intermediate?

Thanks.

[James Lowther]

Originally Posted by wengchun

well. i have spotted a big egret recently in a freshwater wetland. it was all alone -solitary. could this be a great egret or intermediate?

Thanks.

Looks like a great egret to me wengchun,
James