Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 16:56   #1
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wyoming, USA
Posts: 2,754
Nashville Warbler split

This was new to me, but was cited in the recent Brown Creeper paper:

http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~jweir/p...2004_PRSLB.pdf

Apparently the Eastern Nashville Warbler is sister to a clade composed of Western Nashville and Virginia's.

Makes sense biogeographically (the populations are allopatric to one another).

Does anyone know if their are older common names associated with each population? If this gets split, a "Western Nashville Warbler" which has never actually occurred in Nashville seems to be kind of a bad name
__________________
World: 1184, ABA: 617
Last Lifer: Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Last ABA:Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Mammal: 228 Herp: 172
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 17:03   #2
Richard Klim
-------------------------
 
Richard Klim's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 9,836
Vernacular names

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
Does anyone know if their are older common names associated with each population? If this gets split, a "Western Nashville Warbler" which has never actually occurred in Nashville seems to be kind of a bad name
Oreothlypis (ruficapilla) ruficapilla - Nashville Warbler
Oreothlypis (ruficapilla) ridgwayi - Calaveras Warbler

Ref: holarcticlisting.webs.com/checklist.htm

Richard

Last edited by Richard Klim : Friday 17th December 2010 at 17:15.
Richard Klim is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 17:05   #3
fugl
Moderator

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 9,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
Does anyone know if their are older common names associated with each population? If this gets split, a "Western Nashville Warbler" which has never actually occurred in Nashville seems to be kind of a bad name
Actually, “Nashville” (IMO) is the most acceptable part of the name. What I don’t like is the “Western”. In other words, quirky good, clunky bad!
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 17:10   #4
fugl
Moderator

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 9,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Klim View Post
Oreothlypis (ruficapilla) ruficapilla Nashville Warbler
Oreothlypis (ruficapilla) ridgwayi Calaveras Warbler
Now there's a nice name--let's hope that's what's finally settled on!

Last edited by fugl : Friday 17th December 2010 at 17:31.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 17:36   #5
Snapdragyn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 157
Just to be consistent, what might the eastern population be renamed so as to avoid confusion between 'Nashville Warbler' in the old sense (applied to both populations) & 'Nashville Warbler' in a new sense (eastern population only)?
Snapdragyn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 18:04   #6
Microtus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapdragyn View Post
Just to be consistent, what might the eastern population be renamed so as to avoid confusion between 'Nashville Warbler' in the old sense (applied to both populations) & 'Nashville Warbler' in a new sense (eastern population only)?
Memphis Warbler?
Microtus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 18:31   #7
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wyoming, USA
Posts: 2,754
What about Bluegrass Warbler :)
__________________
World: 1184, ABA: 617
Last Lifer: Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Last ABA:Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Mammal: 228 Herp: 172
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 19:52   #8
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,028
If it happens, would be a great opportunity to get rid of the pointless Nashville Warbler name once and for all (hope they can come up with an excuse to change all the other inappropriate geographic warbler names as well--Connecticutt, Tennessee, Kentucky).

Best,
Jim
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2013
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 20:05   #9
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wyoming, USA
Posts: 2,754
Doesn't Kentucky though at least breed in Kentucky? I never saw that name as being odd?
__________________
World: 1184, ABA: 617
Last Lifer: Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Last ABA:Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Mammal: 228 Herp: 172
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 20:17   #10
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
Doesn't Kentucky though at least breed in Kentucky? I never saw that name as being odd?
Yes, they do, so probably the least odd, but it's still odd in my view to name a bird after a narrow political region when it's much more widespread. Looking on eBird, for example, they seem to have densest population in Missouri, Arkansas, W. Tennessee, and Lousiana, and occur in lesser numbers throughout almost all of the eastern U.S.

http://ebird.org/ebird/GuideMe?cmd=q...tinue=Continue

Best,
Jim
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2013
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 22:48   #11
Mysticete
Registered User
 
Mysticete's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wyoming, USA
Posts: 2,754
If we just start renaming birds because their names "don't make sense" most of NA birds will have to be renamed. After all, Ring-necked Ducks don't have an obvious ringed neck, ovenbirds are not in Furnariidae, and how useful are names honoring ornithologists?
__________________
World: 1184, ABA: 617
Last Lifer: Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Last ABA:Yellow-bellied Flycatcher
Mammal: 228 Herp: 172
Mysticete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 17th December 2010, 23:21   #12
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 15,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
how useful are names honoring ornithologists?
More useful then names providing geographic references that are wrong ...

Or names that are the 15th one that provides the information that there is some shade of grey on the neck of a bird ...

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: SCSCB
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 00:37   #13
fugl
Moderator

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 9,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by njlarsen View Post
More useful then names providing geographic references that are wrong ...

Or names that are the 15th one that provides the information that there is some shade of grey on the neck of a bird ...

Niels
Since when do bird names have to be “useful”? They’re just labels, after all. I personally like the locality names--they (sometimes) sound nice & they often have interesting histories. But all this has been debated before in this forum & as far as I know nobody in any camp has ever changed his mind.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 01:26   #14
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 15,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Since when do bird names have to be “useful”? They’re just labels, after all. I personally like the locality names--they (sometimes) sound nice & they often have interesting histories. But all this has been debated before in this forum & as far as I know nobody in any camp has ever changed his mind.
Agree, sorry to jump on this one

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: SCSCB
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 04:32   #15
Microtus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Moore View Post
Yes, they do, so probably the least odd, but it's still odd in my view to name a bird after a narrow political region when it's much more widespread. Looking on eBird, for example, they seem to have densest population in Missouri, Arkansas, W. Tennessee, and Lousiana, and occur in lesser numbers throughout almost all of the eastern U.S

Best,
Jim
So let's name it Eastern Warbler.
Microtus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 08:57   #16
MJB
Registered User
 
MJB's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Holt
Posts: 3,232
'Nobody' exclusively male?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Since when do bird names have to be “useful”? They’re just labels, after all. I personally like the locality names--they (sometimes) sound nice & they often have interesting histories. But all this has been debated before in this forum & as far as I know nobody in any camp has ever changed his mind.
Or, 'changed her mind', unless you intend to suggest that females always do the opposite?
MJB
MJB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 10:56   #17
Microtus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugl View Post
Since when do bird names have to be “useful”? They’re just labels, after all. I personally like the locality names--they (sometimes) sound nice & they often have interesting histories. But all this has been debated before in this forum & as far as I know nobody in any camp has ever changed his mind.
I agree with this concept. A name is a label. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate or 100% indicative, to the exclusion of all other names. The Kentucky Warbler is found in Kentucky, and also many other places, while many other warblers are found in Kentucky. The Nashville Warbler was evidently first described from a specimen coming from that town, though it has a wider distribution, and other warblers visit Nashville. The Bran-colored Flycatcher is rather dull looking, as are many other flycatchers.
Microtus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 11:26   #18
chris butterworth
aka The Person Named Above
 
chris butterworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wirral / Naha-shi
Posts: 12,414
Why not call it Eastern-Nashville Not-really-a-warbler-at-all-but-we-aren't-going-to-let-that-stop-us-from-calling-it-a-warbler?

Chris
__________________
Chris

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental cradle of true art and true science " Albert Einstein
chris butterworth is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 12:32   #19
fugl
Moderator

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 9,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJB View Post
Or, 'changed her mind', unless you intend to suggest that females always do the opposite?
MJB
Well, well, looks like somebody has time on his hands!
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 12:42   #20
Microtus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 5,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris butterworth View Post
Why not call it Eastern-Nashville Not-really-a-warbler-at-all-but-we-aren't-going-to-let-that-stop-us-from-calling-it-a-warbler?

Chris
Ennrawa Abwag Tltsufciaw?

But where would the hyphen go, if anywhere?
Microtus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 13:05   #21
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticete View Post
If we just start renaming birds because their names "don't make sense" most of NA birds will have to be renamed. After all, Ring-necked Ducks don't have an obvious ringed neck, ovenbirds are not in Furnariidae, and how useful are names honoring ornithologists?
Of course. I never said all names have to be useful or descriptive of the bird or anything of the sort. I just meant I don't like some of the misleading names for narrow political subdivisions. Most birders prefer the names they grew up with, so there's a natural bias towards retaining current and more familiar names. But if you need to change a name, you don't have to be a slave to the traditional or familiar, you can consider something new and more appropriate if the old one has little to recommend it. But even I do like some arbitrary geographic names, e.g. Cape May Warbler and Baltimore Oriole--those have charm and appealing literary qualities that override objections based on their being arbitrary. (I had to suffer the agony of the change from Baltimore to Northern Oriole in the 80's, and believe me I don't want to go back!) But I don't see any redeeming qualities to the ones I listed.

And I never suggested we should start reforming names just because we find them arbitrary. Changing names creates confusion--that's why you'd only do it when you have to--you need a reason. But if you do have a reason, why not consider if a better name would be appropriate rather than trying to retain part of an old one just because it's the one you grew up with?

Best,
Jim

Last edited by Jim M. : Saturday 18th December 2010 at 13:40.
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2013
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 13:14   #22
fugl
Moderator

 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 9,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris butterworth View Post
Why not call it Eastern-Nashville Not-really-a-warbler-at-all-but-we-aren't-going-to-let-that-stop-us-from-calling-it-a-warbler?

Chris
Nice name, but the punctuation needs some work. How about "Eastern (from an Amercentric point of view) Nashville (not-really-a-warbler-at-all-but-we-are-not-going-to-let-that-stop-us-from-calling-it-a-warbler) Warbler"?

Last edited by fugl : Saturday 18th December 2010 at 13:17.
fugl is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 14:09   #23
Jim M.
Choose Civility

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 6,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microtus View Post
So let's name it Eastern Warbler.
Or Southern Woods Warbler, Spectacled Warbler, Black-masked Warbler, etc. (though some of these probably already taken)

Best,
Jim

Last edited by Jim M. : Saturday 18th December 2010 at 14:19.
Jim M. is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2013
Click here to Support BirdForum
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 14:46   #24
Ian Lewis
Registered User
 
Ian Lewis's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 154
On a more serious note, do the two forms have separate wintering areas in Mexico? I have records of seeing Nashville Warbler along the Durango Highway and elsewhere in western Mexico, would necessarily refer to ridgwayi?
Ian Lewis is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 18th December 2010, 15:05   #25
njlarsen
Opus Editor
 
njlarsen's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portsmouth, Dominica
Posts: 15,702
Howell & Webb does not help with that question ...

Niels
__________________
Support bird conservation in the Caribbean: SCSCB
njlarsen is offline  
Reply With Quote
BF Supporter 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014
Click here to Support BirdForum
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nashville Warbler? Ottawa, ON Gillian_M Bird Identification Q&A 4 Wednesday 15th August 2007 12:00
Nashville Warbler? NV, USA LzyPhotographer Bird Identification Q&A 5 Friday 10th August 2007 11:40
CT. USA-Nashville Warbler? lvn600 Bird Identification Q&A 8 Tuesday 24th July 2007 21:51
Nashville Warbler? NAL1212 Bird Identification Q&A 3 Monday 5th September 2005 23:42
Common Yellowthroat or Nashville Warbler? Blue Jay82 Bird Identification Q&A 19 Friday 10th September 2004 12:37

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.31546402 seconds with 34 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 21:58.