[Motmot]

Hi there, this bird was trapped last spring on the Balearics. What do you think it is? We checked with the Svensson/Passerines and all measurements given there to separate speculigera from iberiae (very few) were confusingly good in this bird for both taxa . My question is... where can I find more info on these flycatchers and see if it may be possible to id this one properly?
Atlas Flycatcher is not on the Balearics list. I'm not sure about the ssp iberiae of Pied Flycatcher, surely has been overlooked, can't find any references of its occurrence here.
Another question, how come iberiae belongs to Pied and not to Atlas? They are very different from hypoleuca Pieds and veeeery similar to Atlas. They are also geographically "neighbours"!!!
Sorry for the pic, is not very good.
Eduardo

[Motmot]

Found this on the BOU web. Doesn't help much for ID purposes but it is interesting.

"Pied Flycatcher Ficedula hypoleuca

The Eurasian black and white flycatchers have been treated as three separate species: Pied Ficedula hypoleuca, Collared F. albicollis and Semi-collared F. semitorquata. Adult males are diagnosably distinct on the basis of rump colour, size of forehead patch, extent of white on secondaries and tertials, and extent of white on outer tail feathers. Females can also be separated with care, but there is more overlap.

Populations of hypoleuca from Iberia and NW Africa are allopatric. The Spanish form (iberiae) has a larger white forehead than the nominate race, and there is more white in the wings than in populations from further north. Birds from the Atlas Mountains (speculigera) have the greater coverts completely white, but with much less white in the outer tail feathers than in hypoleuca. The white forehead is more extensive in speculigera than in any other forms of hypoleuca. Speculigera is probably diagnosably distinct from iberiae on size of forehead patch. In many ways, speculigera is closer to albicollis, apart from complete neck collar in latter.

DNA sequence data published by Saetre et al. (2001a, Ibis 143: 494-7) suggest that Pied and Collared Flycatchers are monophyletic, with speculigera as their sister group, although the bootstrap support for Pied/Collared relationship is not that strong. Semi-collared is most distinct. Nuclear DNA sequences (Saetre et al., 2001b, Mol. Ecol. 10: 727-49) support these findings. The mitochondrial genetic distances between Pied (hypoleuca NW Europe), Collared, Semi-collared, speculigera and iberiae are all of the order of 3-4%, apart from hypoleuca and iberiae. These are c. 0.5%, which is closer to the intra-taxon differences of 0.12–0.39%.

The evidence suggests that hypoleuca, albicollis, semitorquata and speculigera are diagnosably distinct, and with genetic divergences (from both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA) that are supportive of full species status. The Iberian form seems to be intermediate between speculigera and hypoleuca in morphology, though closer to the latter. The DNA data also suggest that its affinities lie with hypoleuca.

We recommend that Atlas Flycatcher F. speculigera should be separated from Pied Flycatcher F. hypoleuca, but that the Iberian form retains its subspecific status as F. hypoleuca iberiae. F. speculigera has not been recorded in Britain, so this change does not affect the English or scientific names on the British List, or the numerical total of species on Category A."

[John Cantelo]

The best reference on Pied, Collared & Semi-collared et al I can think of is in "Birding World" Vol 7 No 4 (males) & No5 (females) 1994. I have a vague recollection of readong something elsewhere, but can't put my hand on it at the moment, John

[tom mckinney]

Hi Eduardo,

Did you rule out a Pied x Collared hybrid? (although I have no idea how you would) They are not too uncommon from what I've read, and Collared do occasionally turn up in Mallorca don't they?

[edit] Having just had a read through the BW article John mentioned, I can say without a doubt that its identity is uncertain!!! The whole area of identifying anything other than a classic looking Atlas or iberiae and obvious Pied x Collared hybrids (of which 2 types occur - a hybrid resembling Pied and a hybrid resembling Collared!) seems to be very unclear.

The interesting features of your bird are its striking rump, larger than average (well for classic hypo Pied) primary patch, large forehead mark (but correctly shaped and within range for hypo Pied), a seemingly all black tail, very extensive white on tertials/gtr.coverts and whitish innermost secondary. According to BW, the secondary that I just mentioned is an important feature - on Atlas this feather should show a large amount of white on the outer web as on Collared, but the problem is how much is a "large amount."

On your bird there seems to be some grey markings on the rear of the neck - are these accurate or just the light catching?, because there are also some grey markings on the crown that I assume is a result of the light.

Tom.

[Motmot]

Originally Posted by tom mckinney

Hi Eduardo,

I assume you ruled out a Pied x Collared hybrid? They are not too uncommon from what I've read and Collared do occasionally turn up in Mallorca don't they?

Tom.

Hi Tom, this bird showed an all black tail (not the slightest trace of white), no trace of a white collar or semicollar, a large white patch at the base of the primaries and a big frontal white patch. The size of the frontal patch and the primary patch were good for both Atlas and iberiae, borderline. I guess a hybrid CollaredxPied should show some intermediate features that we didn't find on this bird like at least a bit of white in its rectrices, less white in primaries and frontal patch, and at least a trace of collar or semi.
We catch ocasionally Collared Fly., they are rare migrants but regular here on migration (we trapped one last spring too).
Saludos

[Motmot]

Ooops, you edited again with lots of new info, I'll check it!

[Motmot]

"On your bird there seems to be some grey markings on the rear of the neck - are these accurate or just the light catching?, because there are also some grey markings on the crown that I assume is a result of the light.

Tom."

Yes, the bird showed some greyish areas, rather dispersed, no defined pattern. Many typical hypoleuca show greyish areas, a few of the ones we trapped were very grey (more oriental origin?). I'll try to send another pic I have but it will take some time...
Thanks for your help

[tom mckinney]

Hi Eduardo,

The all black tail is OK for a hybrid. According to BW, a bird originally identified as a Semi-Collared in Sweden in 1991 was later re-identified as a hybrid and had an all black tail - a feature most commonly associated with Collared. Pied can also show an all black tail, but this is most uncommon.

Another feature that goes against your bird being Atlas is the outermost greater covert - on Atlas this should be all white, but on your bird it has only a small white tip, and indeed the outer 2 or 3 seem to have black bases something which counts against Atlas. However, a bird with a near exact greater covert pattern to yours, is depicted on page 149 of the BW article and is labelled as a hybrid Collared x Pied.

[Motmot]

Here's another pic of the same bird. It was ringed as an iberiae Pied Flycatcher on general consensus, but none of us had experience on speculigera or iberiae. I don't think it was a hybrid, didn't show mixed features but, where's the field guide of Western Paleartic possible passerines hybrids? We need that one!

[Motmot]

Tom, what does the article say about the amount of white in iberiae greater coverts? That's probably the best clue you found for it not being Atlas.THANK YOU! This bird's
outermost GCs are def. not all white.
Gracias

[Harry Hussey]

Hi all,
Tom:what article are you using?While I don't have the excellent Pied/Collared/Semi-collared articles from the mid-90's,there was an article specifically on the ID of speculigera from these(including iberiae Pied) last year in Birding World.I presume that you have seen this?Haven't gotten it to hand at the moment,but could look it up if necessary?
Based on recollection,this seems either to be iberiae or speculigera,most likely the former,but I'd have to check.
Harry

[Motmot]

I don't want to lose this thread. Tom, Harry, any news? Thanks in advance

[tom mckinney]

Originally Posted by Harry Hussey

Hi all,
Tom:what article are you using?I don't have the excellent Pied/Collared/Semi-collared articles from the mid-90's Harry

That's the one!

Eduardo, I don't have the article at hand, but I will post what it says about iberiae tomorrow.

All the best, Tom.

[Jane Turner]

I have absolutley no confidence on these things any more, but did catch a similar looking bird at Filey about 15 years ago! Failed to ID that too!

Your bird has a much better frontal shield though.

*waves white flag*

[Tim Allwood]

macmillan guide to middle eastern/european birds by shirihai and christie is excellent and well worth consulting. There was a recent piece by my mate Graham Etherington in BW this year concerning atlas flys too

think it will turn out to be iberiae but i can't remember past Semi/Collared/Pied distinctions at the mo!

[tom mckinney]

Okay Eduardo,

'94 Birding World paper by Krister Mild...

Your bird is one of 4 possibles: Pied (nominate hypoleuca), iberia Pied, Atlas or CollaredxPied.

*The all black tail is actually OK for all the above (although rare in Pied - but does occur)
*Typical iberiae and Atlas should show completely white gtr coverts with no black bases.
*Typical iberiae and Atlas upperparts are jet, glossy black like Collared - but black-brown iberiae are not uncommon.
*iberiae appear to be inseperable outside of typical range - many being intermediate between Atlas and hypo Pied, but classic iberiae closely resembles Atlas.
*White on forehead, primary and rump is most prominent on Atlas, less so iberiae and even less on Pied. But the paper illustrates many examples of considerable variation.
*6.4% of fledged young on Gotland are hybrid CollaredxPied.

So there you are. Features in favour and against your bird being all of the above!

One thing it does say is that:

"The wing formula and measurements of speculigera [Atlas] are similar to those of nominate Pied, but the distance between the tips of the first (outermost) and second primaries, fifth primary and wingtip, and sixth primary and wingtip are key measurements for seperating speculigera and hybrids in the hand."

It frustratingly doesn't give the measurements, but they were published in Limicola in 1993.

Tom.

[tom mckinney]

Just read through Macmillan and that is quite vague as to Atlas and iberiae, simply saying they are similar. It does emphasise the problems of CollaredxPied hybrids looking very similar to them both.

However, one interesting thing is an illustration on p.218 of an Atlas that has black on about 2/thirds of the base of its outermost gtr covert and black bases to the outer 2-3 - something Mild says is a bad feature for Atlas...?

[tom mckinney]

Originally Posted by tom mckinney

However, one interesting thing is an illustration on p.218 of an Atlas that has black on about 2/thirds of the base of its outermost gtr covert and black bases to the outer 2-3 - something Mild says is a bad feature for Atlas...?

Looking more closely, it is actually illustrated as having a complete black outermost greater covert, but on a second look I can't really tell whether the bases of the outer 2/3 greater coverts are black or if it is the median coverts.

[Jane Turner]

Here is the Filey Flycatcher.... unfortunately I don't have any better photos of it....

This (Atlas) strikes me as another of those preamture splits!

[Tim Allwood]

seconded Jane!

[Docmartin]

This is what the TSc said on its poster at Swanwick. Sorry the formatting of the table will be rubbish, and the figure won't come through, but the genetic evidence for the split is strong.


Atlas Flycatcher Ficedula speculigera.

The Eurasian black-and-white flycatchers have been treated as three separate species: Pied Ficedula hypoleuca, Collared F. albicollis and Semi-collared F. semitorquata. Adult males are diagnosably distinct on the basis of rump colour, size of forehead patch, extent of white on secondaries and tertials, and extent of white on outer tail feathers. Females can also be separated with care, but there is more overlap.
Populations of hypoleuca from Iberia and NW Africa are allopatric to all other black-and-white Flycatchers. Following ‘the guidelines’ (Helbig et al. 2002), allopatric taxa should be regarded as separate species if they are fully diagnosable in each of several discrete or continuously varying characters related to different functional contexts or DNA sequences, and if the sum of the character differences corresponds with or exceeds that seen in related species that coexist in sympatry. The Spanish form (iberiae) has a larger white forehead than the nominate race, and there is more white in the wings than in populations from further north. Birds from the Atlas Mountains (speculigera) have the greater coverts completely white, but with much less white in the outer tail feathers than in hypoleuca. The white forehead is more extensive in speculigera than in any other forms of hypoleuca. Speculigera is probably diagnosably distinct from iberiae on size of forehead patch. In many ways, speculigera is closer to albicollis, apart from complete neck collar in latter.
Morphology: Adult males from the four taxa seem to be diagnosably distinct, using a combination of characters – mantle colour, size of forehead patch, white edging to tail feathers, rump colour and presence of neck collar.
Several recent papers report upon the molecular genetics and morphology of this taxon (refs).

Molecular data: c3000 base pairs of DNA sequence were obtained from the mitochondrial genome. Genetic distances were computed as shown in the Table. The bigger the number, the more different are the birds. Figures along the diagonal relate to variation among individuals within a taxon.

Atlas Collared Pied (C/N) Pied (Spain) Semi-collared
Atlas 0.19 2.94 3.40 3.33 4.12
Collared 0.12 2.89 2.83 4.02
Pied (Czech/Norway) 0.17 0.49 4.45
Pied (Spain) 0.04 4.38
Semi-collared 0.39

There are several points to note:
First, ignoring for the moment the Atlas birds, the genetic distance between Spanish and Czech Pied Flycatchers (in green) is more similar to that within species (in blue) than between species (in red). This indicates that, despite the plumage differences, Czech and Iberian Pied Flycatchers are conspecific.
Second, Semi-collared is genetically more different from the rest. This indicates that Semi-collared is probably the oldest form.
Third, birds from the Atlas Mountains are more different from Pied Flycatchers than Collareds.

Molecular phylogeny
These data indicate four distinct groups (hypoleuca, albicollis, semitorquata and speculigera). The order of branching in a phylogenetic reconstruction of these data (Fig.) suggests that semitorquata evolved first, and the other three more or less simultaneously. Semi-collared and Pied Flycatchers from widely different areas cluster together in the reconstruction.




Other molecular data
Nuclear sequences: Approximately 3800 bp were sequenced from several different nuclear sites. These confirm the branching order revealed by the mitochondrial data, albeit with lower levels of base-pair divergence. However, this is not atypical of nuclear sequences, and there are fixed differences between the taxa.
Microsatellites: These data are not directly relevant to the status of speculigera since this taxon is not included in the analysis. However, Iberian birds are included in the hypoleuca data, and show a clear separation from albicollis.


Recommendation: The genetic distance between speculigera and both hypoleuca and albicollis is similar to that between the latter themselves. Speculigera is as different from semitorquata as are both hypoleuca and albicollis. Adult males are diagnosably distinct morphologically. If albicollis is regarded as a distinct species, then speculigera must be as well.

It is recommended that the population of black-and-white flycatchers breeding in the Atlas Mountains and adjacent areas of NW Africa is treated as a separate species Ficedula speculigera, the Atlas Flycatcher.

[tom mckinney]

Martin,

So what do you think Eduardo's bird is?

Tom.

[Tim Allwood]

Hi Martin

I believe a recent paper by Cracraft has totally revised the Sibley Monroe list and the current proposal is a list with much more similarity to Vouus.

So I would ask how much importance does genetic difference carry in terms of speciation as opposed to other factors, in today's view of avian gentics?

havew we relied to much on genetics recently?

[tom mckinney]

Martin,

What are "microsatellites"? I probably won't understand (intelligence never having been my strong point) but I'm willing to give it a try!

Tom.

[Docmartin]

You want me to make a *decision*? I'll have to consult my conscience on that one.