[Leif]

I was wondering how birds of prey kill their victims. The reason I ask is that my boss at work described hearing a squawking in his garden. After a while he went out to discover a bird of prey (Small bird, grey on top, pale underneath. Peregrine? He's not a birder.) on top of a nearly full grown Starling chick. The parent was dive bombing the predator to no avail. Anyway, the bird of prey was grasping the still alive victim in its claws, and plucking it with its beak. That set me wondering as to how the bird would finish off the victim. Suffocation? Gradual blood loss? Cutting the throat open? It did surprise me that the victim was being plucked alive.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Leif,

Classic Sparrowhawk behaviour there. They kill their prey by 'trampling' them with their sharp claws and dismembering with their bill at the same time (though often not the latter, if the prey is in a position to fight back at all, by pecking at the hawk's vulnerable eyes).

Peregrines are very different, they kill by high speed impact in a stoop, using their highly flexible hind claw to deliver the blow.

Michael

[Mickymouse]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

Hi Leif,

Classic Sparrowhawk behaviour there. They kill their prey by 'trampling' them with their sharp claws and dismembering with their bill at the same time (though often not the latter, if the prey is in a position to fight back at all, by pecking at the hawk's vulnerable eyes).

Peregrines are very different, they kill by high speed impact in a stoop, using their highly flexible hind claw to deliver the blow.

Michael

You have just put me off Sparrowhawks!!!!

Mick

[Michael Frankis]

Originally Posted by Mickymouse

You have just put me off Sparrowhawks!!!!

Mick

You won't want to see film footage of African Wild Dogs bringing down their prey . . .

Michael

[Mickymouse]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

You won't want to see film footage of African Wild Dogs bringing down their prey . . .

Michael

I will take your word on that but please don't tell me anything nasty about House Sparrows I don't want to have to go off them too. LOL

Mick

[malskelton]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

Hi Leif,

Classic Sparrowhawk behaviour there. They kill their prey by 'trampling' them with their sharp claws and dismembering with their bill at the same time (though often not the latter, if the prey is in a position to fight back at all, by pecking at the hawk's vulnerable eyes).

Michael

My parents often get Sparrowhawks in their garden - which I love watching.

The most obscure killing I saw was when it captured a small bird and proceeded to drown it in the bird bath before jumping onto the lawn to eat it.

Never seen anything like it

Mal Skelton

[Nightranger]

I won't go into detail over how sparrowhawks kill but it is often not a quick process. However, they are capable of killing a victim by stabbing with the talons if they have the right kind of grip. In an enclosed space such as a garden, the hawks probably have not enough room to manoeuvre and obtaining a good hold is far from easy. Peregrines do not kill with their talons BTW, they actually kill by severing the neck vertebrae with the beak 'tooth. Only falcons have this adaptation (see the recent Attenborough programme on peregrines) hence why sparrowhawks are generally less efficient in killing. Certainly a good hit in the stoop will often stun a pigeon, but this is unlikely to kill the bird. In fact, there is no way a peregrine can avoid injury to itself if it were to hit a pigeon hard enough to kill it. The 'bite' to the neck is very quick and this would sometimes appear that the pigeon had been killed in the initial hit.

[Rhion]

My wife once watched a Sparrowhawk kill an adult Wood Pigeon. She said it took the hawk about half an hour to finally kill it.

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by Rhion

My wife once watched a Sparrowhawk kill an adult Wood Pigeon. She said it took the hawk about half an hour to finally kill it.

Ooh your are so insensitive (LOL) I was trying to avoid talking about that aspect. Unfortunately, the talon power would only ber effective for relatively small prey such as bird up to the size of a starling for the male hawks but up to blackbird (at a pinch, collared dove) size with the female. As I said, the ability to kill quickly in sparrowhawks is determined by how well they catch the victim. Interestingly, Ian Newton documents around six different hunting techniques in sparrowhawks from the perch and swoop ambush in young birds, to stooping (reminiscent of a falcon), to the cruise missile approaches that are familiar in the adult birds. I cannot remember what the other methods are but sparrowhawks have probably a greater variety of techniques than any other European raptor. Our American friends will appreciate this in comparison with the multiple techniques employed by the Harris hawk.

[Leif]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

Hi Leif,

Classic Sparrowhawk behaviour there. They kill their prey by 'trampling' them with their sharp claws and dismembering with their bill at the same time (though often not the latter, if the prey is in a position to fight back at all, by pecking at the hawk's vulnerable eyes).

Peregrines are very different, they kill by high speed impact in a stoop, using their highly flexible hind claw to deliver the blow.

Michael

Michael: Thanks!

[mamo]

i came across a spa feasting on a wood pigeon, the pigeon being still alive and yet half eaten. not a pretty site. i hid, hoping the spa would come back and finish its meal but, unfortunately, after half hour or so, it didn't show. put the pigeon out of its misery though.

mamo

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by mamo

i came across a spa feasting on a wood pigeon, the pigeon being still alive and yet half eaten. not a pretty site. i hid, hoping the spa would come back and finish its meal but, unfortunately, after half hour or so, it didn't show. put the pigeon out of its misery though.

mamo

Hi mamo,

What you have described is EXACTLY what pigeon fanciers find so abhorrent about the Sparrowhawk - its nasty habit of starting to eat larger prey items while they are still very much alive. So if anyone is tempted to spring to the defence of the 'poor' Sparrowhawk, just think for once of the slow, agonising death that its prey suffers as it is dismembered piece by bloody piece over an agonising 30 minutes or more. Sadly there isn't always someone on hand to put the prey out of its misery as you did!

[Andrew Rowlands]

Yes Anthony, quite different to the method used by pigeon 'fanciers' when despatching smaller 'prey' items; usually they wring their necks, drop them into a bucket, then leave the cot......

Andy.

[mamo]

i think the difference here is that the spa is a WILD bird doing what comes natural. pigeon fanciers, on the other hand, play with their pigeons 'til their hearts content and whoa betide any nasty WILD animal that feels a bit hungry!! as you can probably tell, i have no sympathy whatsoever with pigeon fanciers

mamo

[Michael Frankis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Rowlands

Yes Anthony, quite different to the method used by pigeon 'fanciers' when despatching smaller 'prey' items; usually they wring their necks, drop them into a bucket, then leave the cot......

...... and then dump them all in a heap on the edge of a school playng field so the children can enjoy the sight and smell (yes, I've seen this happen)

Michael

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

...... and then dump them all in a heap on the edge of a school playng field so the children can enjoy the sight and smell (yes, I've seen this happen)

Michael

Get a life Michael, PLEASE. You are as predictable as a pike in a tankful of goldfish with your 'witty' repartee and anecdotal clap-trap, in that you feel obliged to take a 'bite' out of anything that passes before you. But beware, sometimes the biter gets bitten!

Why not try reading what I actually said and not what you would have liked me to say. I referred specifically to LARGER PREY ITEMS which in my book includes such things as jackdaws, magpies, woodpigeons, woodpeckers, collared doves, rock doves, woodcock, etc., etc., etc. - oh yes, and not forgetting the magnificent racing pigeon of course!

In my book anyone who can stand by and witness this kind of butchery and not get sick to the stomach must be sick in the head.

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by Andrew Rowlands

Yes Anthony, quite different to the method used by pigeon 'fanciers' when despatching smaller 'prey' items; usually they wring their necks, drop them into a bucket, then leave the cot......

Andy.

Andy,

I'm not sure what smaller 'prey' items you are referring to here. Anyway, surely you have answered your own point in that in the unlikely even that a bird's neck has to be wrung, it certainly doesn't take half an hour in which to suffer a lingering blood-stained death - it's instantaneous!

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by Michael Frankis

...... and then dump them all in a heap on the edge of a school playng field so the children can enjoy the sight and smell (yes, I've seen this happen)

Michael

I have had some interesting information directly from the RPRA (thanks Anthony) and I am sure this type of behaviour would be frowned upon. If anyone witnesses anything like this, then the RPRA would probaly wish to know, especially if the rings are still present. However, is it possible that the birds had been ferals that had been shot illegally and dumped? It would be difficult to prove a Wildlife or Cruelty offence but I am certain there would be a Public Health problem here.

I have have nothing against racing, it is just the uninformed opinions about raptor predation that annoy me (cue: Anthony...LOL).

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by mamo

.. as you can probably tell, i have no sympathy whatsoever with pigeon fanciers

mamo

That's not in the least bit surprising, since you clearly have no knowledge of racing pigeons and/or pigeon racing whatsoever. All you are doing is repeating the same tired old rhetoric dished out by people who really should know better. Don't expect to come out with this sort of rubbish unless you want to be challenged on it. Call yourself a bird lover? I don't think so!

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by Ian Peters

I have had some interesting information directly from the RPRA (thanks Anthony) and I am sure this type of behaviour would be frowned upon. If anyone witnesses anything like this, then the RPRA would probaly wish to know, especially if the rings are still present. However, is it possible that the birds had been ferals that had been shot illegally and dumped? It would be difficult to prove a Wildlife or Cruelty offence but I am certain there would be a Public Health problem here.

I have have nothing against racing, it is just the uninformed opinions about raptor predation that annoy me (cue: Anthony...LOL).

Hi Ian,

Hooray - at last the sweet voice of reason without the rhetoric!

My only comment is to add that the RPRA would certainly like to know rather that probably like to know. We are governed by very strict rules indeed and action would undoubtedly be taken against anyone behaving in such a stupid manner.

And I couldn't agree more with you final comment, although I might have said that it's uninformed opinions about racing pigeons that get up my proboscis!

Regards,

Anthony

[James Lowther]

Originally Posted by Anthony Morton

What you have described is EXACTLY what pigeon fanciers find so abhorrent about the Sparrowhawk - its nasty habit of starting to eat larger prey items while they are still very much alive. So if anyone is tempted to spring to the defence of the 'poor' Sparrowhawk, just think for once of the slow, agonising death that its prey suffers as it is dismembered piece by bloody piece over an agonising 30 minutes or more.

Anthony,
that's absolutely ridiculous - so what if a sparrowhawk kills it's prey in a manner that would be abhorrent if a human did it - it's an animal for crying out loud!!! You might as well object to the pigeon's 'nasty' habits of strutting around in the nude, flinging its meal around willy-nilly and defecating in public. Such moralistic judgement of animal behaviour is about 50 years out of date.
James

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian Peters

I have had some interesting information directly from the RPRA (thanks Anthony) and I am sure this type of behaviour would be frowned upon. If anyone witnesses anything like this, then the RPRA would probaly wish to know, especially if the rings are still present. However, is it possible that the birds had been ferals that had been shot illegally and dumped? It would be difficult to prove a Wildlife or Cruelty offence but I am certain there would be a Public Health problem here.

They had racing pigeon rings on. Wishing I'd thought of reporting it, but I never got round to it (it was at the start of a long day out birding, looking for an Iceland Gull that had been in the area, then going on elsewhere - time I got home, I was too tired to think about phoning the police).

Originally Posted by Ian Peters

I have have nothing against racing, it is just the uninformed opinions about raptor predation that annoy me (cue: Anthony...LOL).

Agreed!

Michael

[mamo]

hurrah for the voice of reason, James' that is. I'm afraid, Mr Morton, that like most "lovers" of one kind or another, you sir, are far too blinkered in your overall appraisal. The day you teach a sparrowhawk,or any other raptor, for that matter, which pigeons it can and can't eat, then i'll agree that to kill the nice pet ones is rather unfair.
oh, and where did i call myself a bird lover? i am appreciative of them wonderful winged creatures, but to call myself a lover, bit too strong a word i think. i love my wife and children, but not birds.

mamo

[Anthony Morton]

Originally Posted by James Lowther

... You might as well object to the pigeon's 'nasty' habits of strutting around in the nude, flinging its meal around willy-nilly and defecating in public. Such moralistic judgement of animal behaviour is about 50 years out of date.
James

James,

I can only apologise if I've got it wrong but I thought we were having an adult discussion about 'Birds of prey and killing methods'. In recent postings this has centred around the sparrowhawk's inability to kill larger prey items cleanly BEFORE beginning its meal, coupled with the often excessive length of time it can take for the partly eaten prey to die a lingering death.

Clearly you haven't bothered to read my earlier postings. If you had, you would understand that it is this aspect of the sparrowhawk's behaviour that pigeon fanciers find unacceptable - and that's all I said. However, this hasn't stopped the 'Let's Try To Discredit Racing Pigeons At All Costs' brigade from going into a predictable feather-pecking frenzy with its usual mixture of unsupported anecdotes and anti-pigeon jibes.

This brings me back to your above comment. What on earth is the point you are trying to make and what, if anything, has it got to do with 'Birds of prey and killing methods'? If there was a BirdForum prize for 'Pointless Postings' I reckon you've got a certain winner with this one!

[tom mckinney]

Anthony,

What you are failing to understand from all of these responses is that okay, Sparrowhawk's may indeed have a killing method that prolongs the death of its prey and is perhaps somewhat abhorrent for some people to see or know about - but so what? What the hell can you do about it? NOTHING. Your statement that Pigeon Fanciers find it "unacceptable" would seem to suggest that something can be done about it...?

There are many more "abhorrent" things that occur in the world of nature. I recall seeing a revolting scene on TV of a South American eagle species devouring a Sloth slowly whilst it writhed in agony in the eagles nest. Many also remember the horrendous cat and mouse games of Killer Whales and seals that was so graphically filmed in "The Trials of Life." The other month I saw about 6 male Mallard brutally gang rape a female and very nearly drown her. The other day I saw 2 Crows peck a still living young but sick Black-headed Gull to death - they gave special attention to the poor things eyes.

I note that Pigeon Fanciers never mention things like this. No, they seem to reserve such comments as "abhorrent" to creatures which affect their own hobby. And you say you don't have an anti-Sparrowhawk agenda?

Nature , Mr Morton, does not conform to the labels of good/bad/right/wrong/nasty/evil.