[pdecker]

Hi, I'm no expert and after weeks of eye strain searching these forums and looking through the limited stocked range here in NZ I'm still undecided about a good quality bin for hiking that I can afford to lose, break or get stolen by an Orc. I'm after some opinions of bins that:

1. are $US250 or less
2. about 350g (12 ounces) or less (I have Yosemite 8x30, excellent value but too big and heavy)
3. waterproof
4. have quality optics and an excellent image (might be impossible for the price)
5. 8-10 x 25-28

I like the Travelite EX 9x25 but not sure if it's durable. Olympus Magellan WP specs look good but I'm sure there are other non alpha high performers out there for the price.

(I'll likely have to order from the states or UK so postage always adds about $US30-40 to the overall cost)

Any opinions much appreciated
Dunc

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by pdecker

Hi, I'm no expert and after weeks of eye strain searching these forums and looking through the limited stocked range here in NZ I'm still undecided about a good quality bin for hiking that I can afford to lose, break or get stolen by an Orc. I'm after some opinions of bins that:

1. are $US250 or less
2. about 350g (12 ounces) or less (I have Yosemite 8x30, excellent value but too big and heavy)
3. waterproof
4. have quality optics and an excellent image (might be impossible for the price)
5. 8-10 x 25-28

I like the Travelite EX 9x25 but not sure if it's durable. Olympus Magellan WP specs look good but I'm sure there are other non alpha high performers out there for the price.

(I'll likely have to order from the states or UK so postage always adds about $US30-40 to the overall cost)

Any opinions much appreciated
Dunc

Here's the best one I have found. The Olympus Tracker 8x25 is good optically but it has durability problems. The Nikon 8x25 Prostaff.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Binocular.html

[pdecker]

Thanks,

I think the Prostaff is the same as the Travelite EX?
http://www.photowarehouse.co.nz/niko...ars-with-case/
If so thats another vote for the bin at the top of my current possible list.

Dunc

[RJM]

Compacts are a tough nut to crack as optical compromises increase by an order of magnitude when aperture drops below 30mm. As an alpine hiker, I am constantly looking to reduce my pack weight so I can go further faster and see more or just to carry luxuries like a binocular. This season I am giving serious consideration to these two candidates. Outside the USA, the Nikon Trailblazer is called the Sportster EX. I have looked thru the Pentax many times and generally like what I've seen while the Nikon is new on my radar. I am a sucker for an ultrawide FoV but the 10mm eyerelief may be a dealbreaker, especially when I'm hot/sweaty from the hike. Price is certainly right though and I won't cry if they get lost/broken.

[ceasar]

My son backpacked through adjacent parts of Chile, Peru and Bolivia with the Pentax 9 x 28 LV and was pleased with them. $199.00 at Eagle Optics. 12.8 Oz and long eye relief.

I have them back now and they are in good shape. See the reviews and stats here.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binocular...rism-binocular

Bob

[typo]

On the whole I prefer the reverse porros optically to the <$250 roofs. The Prostaff/Travelite EX is pretty good (though not my personal choice), and possibly the best of the waterproofs IMO. My wife has the Pentax 9x28LV. Being picky, compared to my reverse porro I find the focus a bit fast, the CA and field curvature a little too pronounced, the field of view a little narrow, and there is a more glare/flare than my own pair. That makes the Pentax sound rubbish, but it certainly isn't. I think it compares pretty well to most of the favoured roofs at that price... just smaller.

For a walk on a fine day or birding, I'd take the reverse porros. For a more serious wet weather outing or 'hike' the Pentax wins for me. I may be wrong, but I don't feel I need to protect it in the same way, it slips into a pocket more easily, and feels more secure in wet hands.

Hope this helps.

David

[Robert Wallace]

When looking at binoculars at birdfairs etc I have been impressed by the Opticron 8x32 Traveller which is a compromise between conventional and compact binoculars. It weighs 17oz (460 gm.) and has a field of view of 111mtrs @1000mtrs. Worth a look or researching?

[pdecker]

Thanks guys

Yes the 9x28 pentax was an obvious first choice but I've found some mixed reviews of the optics here and elsewhere (maybe unfairly) which deflated my initial enthusiasm. They seem to be a unique format but one which makes sense with the larger objectives but still being compact. Unfortunately I can't get to try them 1st and they retail at $700NZ ($550US) over here so I thought they were way out of my range (FOV isn't a deal breaker for me).

The sportstars again look the part but of the very few I've tested I did manage a side by side with the travelite ex and thought the travelite was quite a bit brighter and sharper.

There are others I've seen on the web (Minox, B&S, Vortex, Kowa etc.) but I think I'd be gambling ordering these without some experienced opinions first. (There's a limited market at this latitude so I'm heavily reliant on other peoples' peepers for info).

[typo]

Robert,

My wife and I compared the Pentax to the Opticron Traveller 10x32. The Pentax was marginally sharper and had little more contrast, but as a travel bin I liked it a lot. However I liked the 6x32 a lot more. The gain in brightness was pretty dramatic. If I didn't already have a 6x and 7x I might have gone for that. The range has been discontinued and InFocus ( http://www.at-infocus.co.uk) has them discounted at the moment. They are a bit heavier than the others but feel like they are built to take some serious knocks. I don't know if they would ship to NZ.

David

[lilcrazy2]

Yes the Nikon Sportstar EX is same as USA Trailblazer and the Travelite EX is same as USA Prostaff. It always puzzles me why Nikkon markets binos in the USA with a different name than Canada and the rest of the world.

The reverse porros will generally give a brighter and sharper view than the small roofs, with the 8x25 Olympus Tracker being one of the best, but not waterproof. As others have suggested the Nikon 8x25/9x25 Travelite EX may be a good one, but others reviewers have complained about glare. I tried the 8x26 Bushnell Legend, 8x26 Alpen Shasta Ridge and 8x25 Nikon Travelite VI, and prefer the Olympus tracker in the reverse porros even though not waterproof.

The 8x25 SportstarEX/Trailblazer was not a very optically impressive bino to me, as it was not phase coated, but it was a little better than the majority of non phase coated roofs selling for less than $100. It seemed very well built and folded up small with its double hinges, but was a pain to use to me, as most double hinge binos are. I have tried a lot of good phase coated 8x25 roofs in the last 7 months, and I always go back to my Bushnell 8x28 Excursion (discontinued), as I haven't found anything that surpases it in the roof line for twice the $$. I even prefer it to my Nikon 8x20 premier LXL.

Tom

[ceasar]

I don't know if you can get these down under. I think the company is in Oregon, USA. This little 8 x 25 also was sold by Columbia Sportswear Co, (a backpacking oriented business) under it's own name. It was discontinued and sold at closeout prices by Camera Land in NYC. It is a very good binocular and at $89.00 from Camera Land it was a steal. See http://www.cameralandny.com/optics2/...ackcountry8x25

If you can contact Krueger you might be able to get one under the Krueger name at the current price which is somewhere around $200.00-I think. My son is now using one of mine backpacking in northern New Mexico.

http://www.krugeroptical.com/backcountry_pocket.asp

Bob

[RJM]

Originally Posted by lilcrazy2

The 8x25 SportstarEX/Trailblazer was not a very optically impressive bino to me, as it was not phase coated, but it was a little better than the majority of non phase coated roofs selling for less than $100. It seemed very well built and folded up small with its double hinges, but was a pain to use to me, as most double hinge binos are.

Are you sure about the lack of phase coatings? Just because the feature is not hyped does not necessarily mean it is lacking. The process is so well established that it is hard to find a roof now that isn't phase coated. Especially since this is an updated "EX" over the older plain Sportstar.

Still not have looked through one yet but I am wondering how they got such an ultrawide FoV from a small prism and no aspheric processes. FWIW, the Nikon Japan catalog shows this bino has won Japan's prestigious "good design" award.

[lilcrazy2]

Originally Posted by RJM

Are you sure about the lack of phase coatings? Just because the feature is not hyped does not necessarily mean it is lacking. The process is so well established now that it rare to find a roof now that isn't phase coated. Especially since this is now an updated "EX" over the older Sportstar.

Still not have looked through one yet but I am wondering how they got such an ultrawide FoV from a small prism and no aspheric processes. FWIW, the Nikon Japan catalog shows this bino has won Japan's prestigious "good design" award.

I had the 8x25 Sportstar EX that I got out of Canada and it is not phase coated. It is very rare to find any compact 8x25 roofs with phase coating for less than $175-$225 MSRP - examples 8x25 Leupold Olympic, 8.5x25 Weaver Grand Slam, 8x25 Brunton Eterna, and even the Kruger/Columbia 8x25 Backcountry mentioned by Ceasar. The Backcountry's were being closed out and still may be available from Sportsmansguide, but I still prefer the 8x28 Bushnell Excursion to any of the above mentioned, as I have owned them all except the Olympics. When you can find the Excursions (417' fov), they still go for close to $100.
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/b...px?c=135&s=161


tom

[RJM]

Originally Posted by lilcrazy2

I had the 8x25 Sportstar EX that I got out of Canada and it is not phase coated. It is very rare to find any compact 8x25 roofs with phase coating for less than $175-$225 MSRP...

I don't think you can still make the assumption that inexpensive roofs are not phase coated. I have a $50 Canon 5x17mm that is clearly phase coated. You can do an easy home test to verify.

Since most of us don't have an interferometer handy (useful to test the quality of the phase coatings) we can at least learn if our roof bins are phase coated if we have a pair of gray polarizing sunglases/filter and an LCD screen handy.

For example, open your Notepad on a laptop PC, maximizing the window so that the screen is white. Put on your polarizing sunglasses and look through the objective side of your bins as you point the eyepiece side towards the white screen LCD. You should clearly see the illuminated circle split into 2 colors. If the prism is phase coated you will see colors, probably purple on 1 side and yellow-green on the other. As you rotate the bins the colors will suddenly swap places. If the prism isn't phase coated, the split is white and black/charcoal colored.

hope this helps,
Rick

[lilcrazy2]

Rick
Thanx for the tip on the PC test, but lets face it - manufacturers live and die by their advertising, and since phase coating is obviously not a cheap add on, manufacturers advertise when their binos have it. Just as they advertise AL, SIL, or dielectric coatings, or ED glass.

While your 5x17 Canons may have PC, they seem to be a specialty bino in the genre of the Nikon 5x15 DCF Titanium. I stand by my earlier categorization that inexpensive roofs are generally not phase coated. With the amount of money that manufacturers spend on advertising, do you seriously think that Nikon would market a $80 bino such as the Sportstar EX/Trailblazer and not trumpet the fact that they were PC?

I can understand that the Sportstar EX won the "good design" award, as they are a nice looking and well built little waterproof roof - but that doesn't mean they have PC. I had em and didn't care a whole lot for them, so I sold em. IMO the 8x25 Krugers, the 8x28 Excursions and the 8x25 Trackers are so much better optically that its not even a contest. Hey, I'm not trying to talk you out of them, so try em and go for em if you decide they are that good.

Tom

[RJM]

Well you are free to assume what you want. PC is just another type of dielectric process. OEMs have a dismal record of unreliability when it comes to accurately reporting the features and specifications. PC is 20+ year old process that is now CHEAP to implement in the same way ED glass and now ultra-bright dielectic prism coatings are also now CHEAP to implement.

Rather than sticking with outdated assumptions, I prefer tested hard facts. I suspect any optical issues can be traced to trying to squeeze an ultrawide view into a compact's inherently short focal length and small prism. Hopefully I can get to a shop in the next few days to check them out. Frankly, I had forgotten I even had the cigarette pack-sized Canon 5x17mm until I pulled it out for this thread so may not even need another hiking bino!

[lilcrazy2]

Originally Posted by RJM

Well you are free to assume what you want. PC is just another type of dielectric process. OEMs have a dismal record of unreliability when it comes to accurately reporting the features and specifications. PC is 20+ year old process that is now CHEAP to implement in the same way ED glass and now ultra-bright dielectic prism coatings are also now CHEAP to implement.

Rather than sticking with outdated assumptions, I prefer tested hard facts. I suspect any optical issues can be traced to trying to squeeze an ultrawide view into a compact's inherently short focal length and small prism. Hopefully I can get to a shop in the next few days to check them out. Frankly, I had forgotten I even had the cigarette pack-sized Canon 5x17mm until I pulled it out for this thread so may not even need another hiking bino!

Rick
If thats what you think, then thats the way it must be! But if these processes are so CHEAP, maybe you can clear up the following for me.

Why does Nikon want $100 more for its dielectric coated Monarchs than the regular ones?

Why does Alpen want $200 more for the Wings ED vs the non ED Wings?

[RJM]

You think they should charge more? Why does a Swarovision with two 42mm barely-ED spec'd lenses sell for as much as a state-the-art 5" Fluorite/FPL-53 lens with ~5x the surface area now? Because they can!

Seriously, the incremental materials markup for an ED lens over plain crown/flint used in binoculars is/was ~$10. Selling ED glass or dielectric coatings in a bin now is the same as McDonalds hoping you want to supersize your fries and drink since the incremental price increase is ~99.9% profit.

[RJM]

Ok, so on the way home from visiting the inlaws last night my wife wants to stop off at an electronics big-box store to get some accessories for her new iPad2. I use the chance to go to sports optics section and check out the Nikon Sportstar EX. Only got to spend about 15 minutes with it and a few others as the wife was hovering and reminding me I looked like an idiot pointing a binocular at my cell phone LCD while wearing mirrored sunglasses inside at 9pm at night. People were starting to stare at the strange white guy.

Anyhoo, the Sportstar does seem to be a nice comfortable binocular and better than most at it's price point. As reported, it is NOT phase coated though. Given the lack of bright lighting in the stores now (power conservation due to nuclear plant failures) I could make no judgements on affected contrast but was suprised to see it was relatively sharp across most of its ultrawide FoV when looking a various signboards. Eyerelief was not a problem either. Among the other 8 or so non-phase coated 8x25mm sub-$100 roofs I looked through from Vixen, Pentax, Nikon, and Kenko it was clearly superior in pretty much every repsect.

The Pentax 9x28mm LV contiues to impress me. I just wish it was not sooo much larger than the other compact roofs. The big disappoint contiues to be the Kowa BD8x25. I have never found a display sample yet that was either in collimation or did not have a diopter issue that prevents the right barrel from focusing clearly. Too bad as this is perhaps the smallest/lightest 25mm compact roof.

As for the reverse porros, I briefly looked at a Pentax WP model worth considering, similar to the Travelite EX and was under $100. Just not a fan of the this design...too bulky and just plain ugly as well.

[lilcrazy2]

Originally Posted by RJM

Are you sure about the lack of phase coatings? Just because the feature is not hyped does not necessarily mean it is lacking. The process is so well established that it is hard to find a roof now that isn't phase coated. Especially since this is an updated "EX" over the older plain Sportstar.

Among the other 8 or so non-phase coated 8x25mm sub-$100 roofs I looked through from Vixen, Pentax, Nikon, and Kenko it was clearly superior in pretty much every repsect.

I am a little surprised that none of the nine or so roofs you tried had phase coating, since its so "hard to find a roof now that isn't phase coated". Glad you finally got to try the EX's and your observations pretty much echoed mine.

When you come across one of these small compact roofs that is phase coated, but not advertised as such, let me know as I'd buy it because it would probably be such a bargain, not to mention the possibility of being a decent bino.

[Steve C]

It's too bad Nikon doesn't put a little more effort into this 8x25 bin. It is just about ideal size and has a lot wider view than almost anything its size. I just about bought one from Sportsman's Warehouse a couple of weeks ago for $80. The only thing that really put me off was of the several I have tried about half were dim and fuzzy and didn't impress me much. The last couple seemed perfectly acceptable. If Nikon would phase correct these and update the coatings I could like it just fine. Maybe upgrade it to the Monarch standard keeping the specs it has.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by Steve C

It's too bad Nikon doesn't put a little more effort into this 8x25 bin. It is just about ideal size and has a lot wider view than almost anything its size. I just about bought one from Sportsman's Warehouse a couple of weeks ago for $80. The only thing that really put me off was of the several I have tried about half were dim and fuzzy and didn't impress me much. The last couple seemed perfectly acceptable. If Nikon would phase correct these and update the coatings I could like it just fine. Maybe upgrade it to the Monarch standard keeping the specs it has.

Your right with Monarch standard and a 25mm aperture it would give you an exit pupil that would be way better than all these 8x20 alpha roofs. I just tried a Nikon 10x25 LX and I still prefer the Nikon Prostaff 8x25 reverse porro for the bigger exit aperture. I ordered one of these PentaX UCF 8X25 w porro's to compare with the Prostaff. They are a little weird looking but on Amazon they have good reviews." As for the reverse porros, I briefly looked at a Pentax WP model worth considering, similar to the Travelite EX and was under $100. Just not a fan of the this design...too bulky and just plain ugly as well."

[RJM]

Originally Posted by Steve C

It's too bad Nikon doesn't put a little more effort into this 8x25 bin. It is just about ideal size and has a lot wider view than almost anything its size.

While I can't speak for pdecker, this bino might be "good enough" for the type of alpine/ridgeline hiking I do here in Japan. Weight and space are at a premium for me and "great" optics are a secondary consideration on hike. They have to fit in my pants pocket or waist pouch without being very heavy. I take a $30 cheapie 10x25 double hinge now but its tunnel-like view is what annoys me the most. An optic like this Nikon would have been considered state-of-the-art 20yrs ago. Heck it's ultrawide ~65° AFoV pretty much puts it at the top of the class for a compact where ~50° or less is the norm.

[Steve C]

Truth be told, the last couple I looked at were probably good enough go what I need it to do too. It's going to have to come from one of the last two dealers so I can look at the one I buy.

[ceasar]

Steve,
It just occurred to me that Kreuger is in Sisters, Oregon. Did you ever try their 8 x 25 Back Country?
Bob