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Melanistic Riband Wave? (1 Viewer)

ColinD

Well-known member
United Kingdom
Hi all,
Last night I trapped a moth (in St. Helens) which has me completely stumped. It's the size of a Riband Wave, but....... well just take a look at the photo. I can only assume that it's a melanistic Riband Wave, but any other suggestions would be very welcome.

If it is a melanistic Riband Wave, has anybody seen one before?

Colin
 

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CJW said:
What a bizarre looking moth, Colin. Could well be a Riband Wave.
I doubt many of us have seen anything like it.

Certainly not a Tawny-barred Angle (as one of suggestions on UKmoths) Wing shape is wrong.

Can't add anything further than what Chris had said.
 
Angus T said:
I doubt many of us have seen anything like it.

Certainly not a Tawny-barred Angle (as one of suggestions on UKmoths) Wing shape is wrong.

Can't add anything further than what Chris had said.

Oh, I've never seen anything like it,
Never seen anything like it.
I've never seen anything like it in my life.

Sorry got carried away there. lol.

I've not seen anything in a collection like it either.

Harry.
 
Apologies for the poor image below, but it shows the underwing, which I think clearly shows that the moth is a Riband Wave type.

Colin
 

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ColinD said:
Apologies for the poor image below, but it shows the underwing, which I think clearly shows that the moth is a Riband Wave type.

Colin

Hello Colin,
It's so unusual that I think that it should be ID'd correctly. Ideally the spm should be set and a 'nads job' done on it to prove identity. It is possible that it is a previously unknown variant of Riband Wave but, it could be something else.

I know this will be against many peoples ethics, but, occasionally specimens have to be preserved for posterity and future identification guides. If this was not done occasionally, then variations of species couldn't be shown in the text books.

Harry
 
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harry eales said:
I know this will be against many peoples ethics, but, occasionally specimens have to be preserved for posterity and future identification guides.
Harry

Agreed.
 
Jasonbirder said:
I`m not sure I agree - perhaps i`m just squeamish.....
Me, too. I don't like killing things. I take it that moth ID hasn't developed yet to the point where a species can be identified by examining a DNA sample?
 
Surreybirder said:
Me, too. I don't like killing things. I take it that moth ID hasn't developed yet to the point where a species can be identified by examining a DNA sample?

Hi Ken,
Working out the DNA of a species can be done. Ideally the specimens should be encapsulated alive in small fully labelled capsules and then immersed in liquid Nitrogen, and taken to the Lab that way. I understand that a series of specimens from a number of sites around the British Isles would be needed in case there were variations between different geographical areas. Each DNA sample costs about £10.00 to process.

If you have a few hundred thousand pounds and perhaps some 20 years to spare, you too could set up a DNA bank for lepidoptera. Some work has already been done on certain butterfly species but as far as I am aware the data obtained has yet to be published.

DNA can also be extracted from some set specimens but one a species dies it's DNA gradually deteriorates so there a limit as to what can be done.

Harry
 
harry eales said:
Hi Ken,
Working out the DNA of a species can be done. Ideally the specimens should be encapsulated alive in small fully labelled capsules and then immersed in liquid Nitrogen, and taken to the Lab that way.
But I'm guessing the liquid nitrogen isn't too good for the moth's health, and so this won't be the solution Ken's looking for.
 
Andrew S said:
But I'm guessing the liquid nitrogen isn't too good for the moth's health, and so this won't be the solution Ken's looking for.

Right first time Andrew,

Death is instantaneous and preserves the specimen until it is required for the DNA extraction. I understand that DNA can be obtained from a section of wing or even a single leg of a specimen but it is a more difficult and time consuming and probably more expensive process.

Harry.
 
Richard H said:
whats a 'nads' job? :h?:

Hi Richard,

A 'Nads Job' is coloquial slang for a genitalia preparation. In every Butterfly and moth species, however similar they are in external appearance do differ in the structure of their male and female sexual organs.

In many cases, it is the only way to identify positively which species it is. Whilst British Butterflies are simple to identify by their wing patterning it is not always so simple with moths, especially when they are subject to great variation in colour and pattern. It is an easy way to separate for example, the Winter Moths, the Daggers, the Ear Moths, and Brocade moths. It is also very useful for identifying Pugs, especially melanic forms that cannot be determined easily any other way. Large insects are very easy to do, Nepticulids are exceptionally difficult, due to their minute size.

It is not a difficult job to do provided you know the correct proceedure, have the necessary equipment and chemicals for microscopical preparation. There are a series of books on the genitalia of both British Butterflies and Moths and the male and female genitalia are figured. There are some species missing but only because they have been found in Britain after the books were published. Drawings for these are usually included in the entomological literature where the species was notified as having been taken in Britain.

One advantage of this method of identification is it can be done on a specimen of any age. I have done work on some specimens that were over 150 years old, in museum collections.

Under a microscope they look very beautiful and in many cases extreamly complex in structure. In several cases in recent decades 'Nads Jobs' has led to the identification of several species including Real's Wood White, Svensons Copper Underwing and Bergers Clouded Yellow to name but three.

Most Scientific Descriptions for newly describes species now include detailed drawings of the genitalia of the new species so other researchers / entomologists can examine specimens they possess to see if the species has been caught earlier but because of it's similarity to another known species has accidentally been missidentified.

In the three species mentioned above it is now known that their larva differ in colour pattern and sometimes shape and the species is easily identifiable if you have a larva. But, if you just have the moth or butterfly then for positive ID you will need a 'Nads Job' doing on it. It's the only way to sort out those species that fall into the 'Aggregate' records.

Harry
 
150! thats an old moth harry! is it the complexity of the genitals that magnifies the differences in species when wing pattern, for example, will not do? Or is it simply some naturally occurant uniqueness of different spicies in the genitalia?
 
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