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Old Thursday 23rd June 2011, 20:13   #1
Johnny Allan
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Uk400club 'list Of Lists' Etc Etc

Hi there,

for those who read (and have any interest in) the 'robust' off topic discussion at the latter end of the original White-winged Scoter thread, (I think it started to digress about here):

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....400club&page=4

The upshot of it seems to be that the UK400Club, (a slightly misleading title as it lists birds from the Republic of Ireland), will publish your name and a list of species against it, even if you have not submitted one and do not wish it to be there:

http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/Fil...une%202011.pdf

I am not interested in UK400Club listing, I don't twitch Ireland and I follow the BOU British list. I have no problem with anyone having a UK400Club list or any other, or no list at all for that matter, it's an individual choice. I have politely asked the UK400Club's founder and self appointed 'judge and juror', Lee Evans to remove me from the list but he has refused, I believe he has refused others who have made similar requests, I can't see why.

OK, so it's not a big deal and I'll live, but I find it discourteous to put my name against a fabricated list (most of the list totals are incorrect IMO), when I have not requested this and do not wish to submit a list and do not want it to be there.

As there seems to be nothing, despite polite requests, I can do to have my name removed, this must, at least, entitle me to question the UK400Club, it's list of lists, it's taxonomic decisions etc and give others the chance to express an opinion (either way), or reply if they so wish, as they were on the aforementioned thread (which was understanderbly closed as it was so far off topic). It was sensibly suggested there that this question be taken up in a thread of it's own.

So, this UK400 'list of lists'. It looks wrong to me. Steve Webb has the highest 'British and Irish' list. I have heard that 'tactical splitting' goes on but don't know if there is any truth in this, please advise if you know. Most lists I can compare look wrong. If you compare the first ten BUBO UK400 Club listings (placed by the individuals themselves), with the list published by the UK400 Club, there are some big discrepancies. What's the point of having a list of 'guesstimated', as Lee put it, or fabricated lists ? Was there really a 'Mike Hunt' on this list, whose list was regularly updated ? Surely the ideal situation is to only publish lists that have been submitted ?

That's all for now. I'll continue later if there's enough interest. I won't if there's not.

Kind regards

Johnny Allan
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Old Thursday 23rd June 2011, 21:37   #2
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Johnny

This may be slightly off topic but in my view, it shouldn't be so difficult determining the very highest combined BOURC, Isle of Man and IRBC lists on an official basis. The reality of the position is that as time goes on, lists get closer together if you maintain a sufficient level of interest to keep on going relentlessly and the top guys hardly miss anything decade by decade let alone year by year. The gaps generally close and usually there is another chance to connect with something that you have previously missed. (It is us "also rans" which are more confusing but then again why should anyone care about their own number - let alone another person's.)

So with that established, I'll have a stab at my own "guesstimate"..... This is accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief - apologies for any errors and no disrespect to any of the three individuals involved. The last published comparison that I am aware of with any detail was Lee's own one from Birding World twenty years ago. This is based on that in part for species way before my time. (That comparison did not include Mel Billington so I have no knowledge of his list in respect of the blockers from the 60's, 70's and 80's.)

Steve Webb's list is 549 on BUBO including (I believe) 4 species which are pending - Alder Flycatcher; House Finch; Slaty-backed Gull; and White-winged Scoter - and one record of a species already on the respective lists but awaiting acceptance - White-throated Robin. As a result, I would contend an official list for Steve is properly based as either 544 or 545 (so not including pending species).

Using 545 as the base position, it is simply a case of working out which species an individual has seen which are out of the norm and which separate that individual from someone else. (For instance, I am acutely aware of the species that Brett has seen and I have not and vice versa. We do not need to compare the other 530 odd to know how our totals compare!)

Occasionally there are "controversial" species. One in question is Little Shearwater and that is the only one where I suspect that my belief may be inaccurate but on the basis that (I believe) that Ron counts one and neither Steve Gantlett nor Steve Webb does and also on the basis that none of them count Royal Tern (!), I think that the comparisons would be:-

Steve Webb - 545.

Ron Johns - the only one of the three to have seen Little Shearwater, American Kestrel, Macqueen's Bustard, Brown Thrasher, Siberian Blue Robin, Dusky Thrush and Pallas's Reed Bunting (plus seven). He has not seen Purple Martin, White-crowned Black Wheatear, Thick-billed Warbler, Citril Finch, Canada Warbler, Cretzchmar's Bunting, Chestnut-eared Bunting and Brown-headed Cowbird which Steve Webb has seen (minus eight) so 544.

Steve Gantlett - the only one of the three to have seen Wood Thrush and Rock Sparrow (plus two) and he has not seen Grey Catbird, White-crowned Black Wheatear and Magnolia Warbler which Steve Webb has seen (minus three) so 544.

There you go - for what it is worth - probably wrong in some respects but you get the principle.

As for the respective UK500 Club lists, I have no idea. It would be a case of deducting what Lee does not count and then adding the additional species.

All the best

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Old Thursday 23rd June 2011, 21:49   #3
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If there was ever a thread that was bound to end in tears ..... Think this has been well rehearsed in the original (now locked) WWS thread.

We all operate to slightly different criteria, whether it be a base list of birds or the clarity / certainty of observation to gain that "tickable" view.

Viva la difference!
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 06:54   #4
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Well, most listers/twitchers know the long (30+ years now) history and the fallings out of the UK400 club, it's complex and many-faceted. I don't think dragging it all out on here will achieve anything.

I can & (at the same time) can't see why someone who has an estimated total might object to his/her name appearing on the list - my old mate Billy Simpson eg. - nice to see he's still going strong after all these years - I suppose the main bones of contention come with the details - ie who claims what etc.

There are many who don't appear (me e.g.!) for various reasons - I no longer twitch - (though it's good to see that I've one blocker on the top names!!)

Lee will want to have his list of lists as complete as possible - who can blaim him for that - including those who have fallen out with him and asked him to remove them: a partial list would be pointless.

Black Kite: sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope your quality of life (birding & otherwise) stays in the pink for a long while to come.

Now, time to get out in the field - that's the important thing!
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 07:53   #5
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Well, most listers/twitchers know the long (30+ years now) history and the fallings out of the UK400 club, it's complex and many-faceted. I don't think dragging it all out on here will achieve anything.

I can & (at the same time) can't see why someone who has an estimated total might object to his/her name appearing on the list - my old mate Billy Simpson eg. - nice to see he's still going strong after all these years - I suppose the main bones of contention come with the details - ie who claims what etc.

There are many who don't appear (me e.g.!) for various reasons - I no longer twitch - (though it's good to see that I've one blocker on the top names!!)

Lee will want to have his list of lists as complete as possible - who can blaim him for that - including those who have fallen out with him and asked him to remove them: a partial list would be pointless.

Black Kite: sorry to hear about your health issues. I hope your quality of life (birding & otherwise) stays in the pink for a long while to come.

Now, time to get out in the field - that's the important thing!
My names on 'that list' H2....and i don't really mind...[in fact...it makes me chuckle]...! I've never submitted a list to Lee so i don't know how he totals up the species.....

Still...i have no axe to grind with Mr.Evans as we have always been polite and helpful to each other whenever we meet. I do understand, however, how individuals have had their 'upsets' with the bloke...but personally i like to keep things 'pleasant' between birding folk....[i recoil from the nasty side of competitive twitching...it should be fun]...!!

Anyhow H2...so whats this 'blocker' you have over the top 'listers'....?

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 07:56   #6
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Interesting comments and points of view from all, many thanks Paul for your bit. The UK400 Club 'list of lists' is, and will always be, almost wholly incorrect. Even if Lee wants to keep it 'as accurate as possible', because the majority of birders don't follow or subscribe to this 'Club', it's impossible and it's largely fabricated. It will also never be accurate to me personally as I only twitch British birds and don't wish to follow UK400 Club taxonomic and other records decisions (does it still count Greater Flamingo?).

Given that this 'list of lists' will only ever be a guess (as well as an entry for 'Mike Hunt', who regularly accrued ticks, I'm told there also used to be a 'Jenny Taylor' as well), would it not be better (Lee), to keep a handle on, say, the top (UK400 Club), 50 listers (assuming that the top 50 have no objection to being there), plus any others who care to submit a list ? Or is it perhaps, the smaller amount of birders who would actually want to be there bothers you. If BUBO is anything to go by, there are far more 'British' lists entered and more 'Britain and Ireland' than UK400 Club.

I'm birding just now so have to close but one last thing. Can anyone (preferably Lee), give me a good reason/s why I (or anyone), have to be on this fabricated and pointless 'list of lists' when I (they) don't wish to be, what does this achieve ?

Please forgive any errors, I'm putting this together in between scanning the lake and sky etc

Cheers for now
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 08:16   #7
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I am getting rather fed up that very pertinent and private emails I am replying to individuals are being splashed all over the internet in an effort to ridicule me, particularly on Birdforum. A private response I write to an individual should be just that - and nothing more. This is mainly dealing with individuals that I have had some form of run ins with over the past 30 odd years, dealing with list fabricating or the like or issues such as stalking, child molestation or other such issues that occasionally I have been roped into and asked to deal with privately. In future, I shall be reluctant to respond to these private emails - as much of it is not the type of material I want published in the public domain. So please accept my apologies, but if I receive emails from individuals such as Black Kite 1964 in future, I shall simply ignore them and not respond. The same goes for all this pettiness with list removals - I won't be reading it - I shall just mark up people that don't want anything to do with me and believe their appearance is somehow aanctioning the UK400 Club will just get marked in red with an asterisk or removed after ten years of them leaving twitching..........

And Paul (Chapman), if you want to know list figures and comparisons, you know my phone number - I'll happily explain to you the differences. Steve Webb does have the highest BOU list, that's undeniable, but of the Top 100 listers, only a handful keep one and over 90% of them twitch Ireland - so it would be a pointless list comparatively. If somebody wants to set up a listing game for just Britain, they are welcome to - perhaps a job for Johnny Allan. He and Mr Sandwell Valley would make a great couple to be in first and second place
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 08:24   #8
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Your comments are way off the mark. Yes, there may be some lists such as your own that are misrepresentative of your true total, but as you probably don't have any idea what is or what isn't countable, then you probably don't have a clue what your UK400 Club list is anyhow. The majority of the published list totals are accurate - and on my desk at the moment are over 140 corrections (most very minor) to some that aren't. Why is the UK400 Club website consistently in the Top 20 and 30 of the most viewed birding websites in the World - because people have an interest in what the club is saying and what their take is on something. You have the cheek to pester me for information (eg a Surrey Red-footed Falcon phoned in direct to RBA) when it suits you but then at every opportunity attempt to have a cheap snide behind my back or write disruptive emails knowing all too well how it will spontaneously attract other Evans-haters into responding. Carmel was reflecting only last night after reading your comments how grateful Linda was (your girlfriend) for us allowing the two of you spend weekends at our place when you first got into twitching. I am my own man and I deal with people in the way that they deal with me and occasionally I need space on my own - hence the Alpine Swift and Bluethroat trips that tipped you over the edge and marred our friendship (from your point of view). These petty squabbles are just so tiresome and that's why I like to spend time on my own away from this nonsense and birdwatch on my own

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 08:46   #9
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My names on 'that list' H2....and i don't really mind...[in fact...it makes me chuckle]...! I've never submitted a list to Lee so i don't know how he totals up the species.....

Still...i have no axe to grind with Mr.Evans as we have always been polite and helpful to each other whenever we meet. I do understand, however, how individuals have had their 'upsets' with the bloke...but personally i like to keep things 'pleasant' between birding folk....[i recoil from the nasty side of competitive twitching...it should be fun]...!!

Anyhow H2...so whats this 'blocker' you have over the top 'listers'....?

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
U, I agree with all you said there. I've no axe to grind either, have always got on with Lee - went on my first ever twitch with him & Richard Webb when I was in Herts for a year - Buff-breasted sandpiper at Blithfield c.1980. (remember that one, Lee?) I stopped twitching after reaching 400+ .

Having done all that & knowing about the rivalry, the differences of opinion - never something I relished then, though I understand, having had the passion for the competitive side of things - the remnants of which remain still - probably why I mentioned the blocker! - just a gentle wind up as a reminder of the old days.

Anyway as it's not my scene now, I shall bow out and let those in the now continue this debate, I just hope there isn't further public falling out - as Lee says - call him, email him - don't air the dirty laundry.

Oh, U, that blocker?

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 08:48   #10
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These petty squabbles are just so tiresome and that's why I like to spend time on my own away from this nonsense and birdwatch on my own
This sums up my views on "twitching". It really just gets ridiculous at times and the fact that people are coming on here to slate you Lee rather than doing what they claim to love, bird watching, sums up so many people at the moment!
On the point of the "list of lists" I think Lee has the right to do what he wants, unless it is used for reasons that break laws! If that is what he is into then that's his life! You all may not like being on the lists but that's life really! Don't honestly see what Lee is doing wrong on this one!
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 08:55   #11
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I am getting rather fed up that very pertinent and private emails I am replying to individuals are being splashed all over the internet in an effort to ridicule me, particularly on Birdforum. A private response I write to an individual should be just that - and nothing more. This is mainly dealing with individuals that I have had some form of run ins with over the past 30 odd years, dealing with list fabricating or the like or issues such as stalking, child molestation or other such issues that occasionally I have been roped into and asked to deal with privately. In future, I shall be reluctant to respond to these private emails - as much of it is not the type of material I want published in the public domain. So please accept my apologies, but if I receive emails from individuals such as Black Kite 1964 in future, I shall simply ignore them and not respond. The same goes for all this pettiness with list removals - I won't be reading it - I shall just mark up people that don't want anything to do with me and believe their appearance is somehow aanctioning the UK400 Club will just get marked in red with an asterisk or removed after ten years of them leaving twitching..........

And Paul (Chapman), if you want to know list figures and comparisons, you know my phone number - I'll happily explain to you the differences. Steve Webb does have the highest BOU list, that's undeniable, but of the Top 100 listers, only a handful keep one and over 90% of them twitch Ireland - so it would be a pointless list comparatively. If somebody wants to set up a listing game for just Britain, they are welcome to - perhaps a job for Johnny Allan. He and Mr Sandwell Valley would make a great couple to be in first and second place
I'm not responding to Lee here, as I have found that to be a pointless endeavor over the past year.

In a gripe I had with him, he asked me to email him privately. When I did so, he did not respond. When I sent the email to him a second time, this time informing him that I had copied several other birders in the email, he, instead of responding privately, as he often claims he does, took a selective portion of the email and posted it online to create more ructions.

That is what I have found Lee to be. A hypocrite of the highest order.

This response however, is aimed at the moderators.

I am baffled by your moderation criteria.

Numerous postings have been removed when targeted at Lee.

However, since Lee's "contribution" to birdforum began lately, he has constantly been allowed to make derogatory comments about other birders and their records.

There is not a controversial rarity thread of late, where he has not come on with a deeply dismissive attitude, but also, manages to fire off volleys of mud at numerous other past records which do not meet muster for him.

His pattern of posting is repetitive and obvious, with clear agendas of attacking records and observers, sometimes not even subtly.

And I guess that is fine. That seems to be the normal fare for these forums.

However, it baffles me how he can constantly and openly refer to other birders by derogatory names such as the "invisible man" with all the implications thereof and not be moderated upon himself. He is being given a very distinct level of leeway (pun intended) on his postings, which no-one else is offered.

Please moderate fairly...or completely.

Regards

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 09:15   #12
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Just a thought...how about a UK 'Rarity Finder's List' that would be far more interesting than chasing other peoples finds, surely far more kudos worth?....might even merit getting 'Birding' into the Olympics'......
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 09:42   #13
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That's another bone of contention - deciding who really has 'found' a particular bird. Endless arguments there too and some people have an unfair advantage (eg, living on Scilly, Shetland, Fair Isle, Lewis, Cley, Portland, Dungeness, Selsey Bill or Polgigga).

As for Owen's comments, please let's not go there again, the upheaval in Irish birding has never been so great since you emerged on the scene. I was told to ignore your comments/emails Owen after I made exhaustive enquiries about you in Irish circles but when you persisted, I did eventually respond (and you then went on to use them to promote your website). In fact, I got very sternly ticked off by some very eminent and leading Irish birders for raising your platform by responding as they have a very low opinion of your activities. However, I must say it, you can make some extremely valuable contributions, are committed to birding and are very good at finding rare birds - there is no denying that.

My approach to birding is very different to many others and I do take seriously the job of recording birds for posterity. I also know the actions of people very well having dealt so long with bird news dissemination. I appreciate that many of my emails lack tactfulness and may often come across as being very rude and hard-hitting. This is unfortunate but throughout the ages I have found that the only way of getting to the truth is to get underneath peoples skin and only that way can you get the information you require to either 'nail' a record or 'firm it up'. After a while, you can devise ways of detecting a fraudulent claim or not. The trouble is, many think identifying birds is straightforward but it isn't - it is often very difficult and complex. Nobody gets identifications right all of the time and the biggest problem that arises is individuals' refusal to back down when they clearly realise theirselves that they have made an unfortunate mistake. The better observer is they who owns up, not the one that carries on with the charade. We all make cock-ups, every one of us, and I believe it is more important to bring the subject to the fore than sweep it under the carpet. This has happened endless times before and many such records are fully accepted by BBRC - it was rife in the 1960's and up until the mid '1970's but fortunately times have moved on.

When we used to stay on Fair Isle at The Puffin many years ago, I used to host a Mastermind-type quiz in between munching my Sugar Puffs. That way I could easily work out who the 'top birders' were - those with experience and true knowledge could quickly hit back with the answers. I often think about bringing such a quiz to the internet so that observer's can prove their real worth.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 10:15   #14
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Just reading back through Owen's comments, he is absolutely right. I do chip in on certain threads where I know that a mistake has been made and an opportunity has arisen to place doubt in the public domain. I believe we are better off by discussing such things. BBRC take the view to keep it all 'in-house' - they do not divulge the reasons why many records are not accepted - they just merely list a record ''as unproven''. I know it is not very nice but I believe it is best to openly discuss a contentious sighting and hence why I made it clear so publicly my doubts over the Don Estuary Greater Sand Plover, the Slender-billed Curlew and many other records I have made publicly aware. Otherwise, the pronblem you have, particularly with some submissions which are faultless and plaguarised from reference books, is that you fall into a category of calling one a liar, which in this day and age of lawsuits is quite dangerous. This is why in some cases records are just steamrollered through because it would be too much hastle to reject them.

Conversely though, the opposite can happen, and records get bogged down in unnecessary minutiae. Take the wintering Black Kite of a few years back in Hampshire - an unequivocal Black Kite - but dismissed as a hybrid by BBRC and not accepted. The reason being that it became unclear which bird was being related to, with images of Red Kites and apparent hybrid types being thrown in.Whether or not the bird was actually an escaped Asiatic Black-eared Kite we will never know, nor whether it was an escaped Kite from the Black Kite centre near Andover but what it was was a Black Kite.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 10:44   #15
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Ken

That's another bone of contention - deciding who really has 'found' a particular bird. Endless arguments there too and some people have an unfair advantage (eg, living on Scilly, Shetland, Fair Isle, Lewis, Cley, Portland, Dungeness, Selsey Bill or Polgigga)
Lee,

That's easily remedied....''concentration points'' such as you have mentioned could be handicapped...ie a resident birder given the + for the find and -2 for residency...with visiting birders a + for a find and -1 with both positive and negative points acredited to the individual.

With say...the likes of the Grey- cheeked Thrush finder in Herts. London, found whilst doing a Marsh Tit survey in a local wood (as it's a declining species) getting perhaps maximum points ie for location, an inland site and a (first for London).

I'm sure a rating system could be devised with just a little thought, and with that, putting grass root 'local patch' birding back into the frame from whence it all started. Thus putting more emphasis on the 'finding' rather than the listing, this would certainly level the playing field and in all probability move the Big Listing goal posts somewhat. As far as the original finders getting their due credits are concerned...BBRC generally gets it right. cheers
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 10:55   #16
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Fair comments Ken but I do see a worrying increase in the number of BBRC records listing the credits as ''BirdGuides'', as they have judged the images published thereof rather than receiving a field description.

I did once have this sort of ''rating system'' but I have not kept it up to date and yes, there were some very interesting names in the Top 20 and some people that feature in the Top 5 of my listings did not even make the Top 1,000 in the Finders League. One stand-out observer was Chris Heard, who at the time I was compiling, was leagues ahead in the ranking, despite a few handicaps in living in Berkshire. Other names such as Paul Harvey, Paul Holt, Kevin Wilson, Mark Warren, James McAllum, Graham Catley and Kester Wilson were very highly ranked, as well as Paul Holmes, David Walker, Ray Turley and others who have rarely ever twitched rare birds or do not feature in the upper echelons of the twitching tables

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 11:09   #17
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I think its fair to say the BBRC don't necessarily like crediting any information service with the record and will strive to contact the County Recorders and get a written description from at least one observor so they are able to put a name by the record. I know this has happened in Cheshire. Unfortunately or fortunately the advent of good qulaity digital photographs has in many ways negated the need for a field description. I am not arguing that this is necessarily right or wrong but unless a description is submitted the only alternative to not having the bird recorded at all is to refer to photographs published on various websites. After alll I would argue a complete record is better than one with gaps in and I think the BBRC / County recorders have taken the bull by the horns on this one. Conversely you could argue that anyone can fabricate a feather perfect sketch and notes yet. For the record I do keep notes and field sketches but frankly my sketches are crap - as our county rarities secretary will attet to.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 13:00   #18
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U, I agree with all you said there. I've no axe to grind either, have always got on with Lee - went on my first ever twitch with him & Richard Webb when I was in Herts for a year - Buff-breasted sandpiper at Blithfield c.1980. (remember that one, Lee?) I stopped twitching after reaching 400+ .

Having done all that & knowing about the rivalry, the differences of opinion - never something I relished then, though I understand, having had the passion for the competitive side of things - the remnants of which remain still - probably why I mentioned the blocker! - just a gentle wind up as a reminder of the old days.

Anyway as it's not my scene now, I shall bow out and let those in the now continue this debate, I just hope there isn't further public falling out - as Lee says - call him, email him - don't air the dirty laundry.

Oh, U, that blocker?

White-crowned black wheatear. Now that was a bird!
What....this white crown black wheatear...?

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 13:16   #19
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Sure looks like the boy!

What a year that was: 22 lifers for me, with many megas: Savannah sparrow, Mamora's warbler, Elegant tern, Little whimbrel, Lanceolated warbler, YB bunting, Am. redstart, and Green heron to name a few! Though '81 was much better, with 55 lifers - inc. Hudsonian godwit, Steller's eider, Orphean warbler.......!

Good sketch by the way, U.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 13:23   #20
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Sure looks like the boy!

What a year that was: 22 lifers for me, with many megas: Savannah sparrow, Mamora's warbler, Elegant tern, Little whimbrel, Lanceolated warbler, YB bunting, Am. redstart, and Green heron to name a few! Though '81 was much better, with 55 lifers - inc. Hudsonian godwit, Steller's eider, Orphean warbler.......!

Good sketch by the way, U.
Best not mention Elegant Tern H2....[all gone pear shaped on that one i believe]...!

ps..remember how they crippled that sav sparrow...? Poor buger needed a crutch after it was rung....

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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 14:07   #21
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Just a thought...how about a UK 'Rarity Finder's List' that would be far more interesting than chasing other peoples finds, surely far more kudos worth?....might even merit getting 'Birding' into the Olympics'......
http://www.bubo.org/Listing/view-all-lists.html#listtop

http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/sur...l=0&highVal=49

These two lists are about the only attempts to keep track of self found listers, but clearly neither are anywhere near complete, and you'll see discrepancies between the two lists (possibly because people tend to count Irish stuff and non-BOU on their Surfbirds list - i know i do!). Personally i would say that Graham Catley was the greatest rarity finder, especially considering his residence in North Lincs.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 15:10   #22
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On the point of the "list of lists" I think Lee has the right to do what he wants, unless it is used for reasons that break laws! If that is what he is into then that's his life! You all may not like being on the lists but that's life really! Don't honestly see what Lee is doing wrong on this one!
I know nothing about twitching, it isn't something which would vaguely appeal to me, but I can't understand why somebody should be so inconsiderate and bad mannered as to NOT remove somebodies name when requested to do so.

I notice nobody has given any good reason as to why, other than the obvious one of deliberately trying to upset the individual, the name should not be removed.
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 16:02   #23
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I can understand why the ultra-committed folks at the top end of Lee's list might be so interested in the provenance of it, but why are others so bothered ? The top 50 /100 probably have a very good idea of each others lists ,anyway -surely they bump into each other at every mega ?
For the rest of us who will never compete at that level ( responsible jobs, family etc) who cares ? I'd like to make it past 500 before I kick the bucket, but I am not in competition with anyone - just enjoy your birds and don't get so obsessed with what eveyone else has seen.What does it matter if you're ranked 345th or 346th ?
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 16:04   #24
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Crazy scenes. Someone should make a TV documentary about this
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Old Friday 24th June 2011, 16:31   #25
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.What does it matter if you're ranked 345th or 346th ?
It stresses me no end

When I departed the UK for a little jaunt to Africa, my ranking must have been fairly respectable, but given I never made it back to the UK and that was in the mid-90s, my ranking has been in free fall for nigh on two decades!!! Can you imagine, I wake up every morning and pull at my hair 'oh no, another position or two down today'
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