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Thursday 29th December 2011, 00:22
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#1 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Revisiting the classic porro
I have been spending a great deal of time and resources in acquainting myself with some classic porros. What I am referring to is, predominantly, Japanese made 1950-1980 7x models. These mostly consist of 7x35 Ultrawide angle models from a variety of manufacturers (Tasco, Swift, Sears, Manon, Jason, Binolux, etc...). You don't typically hear much discussion on the forums about these binoculars. Yes, Cloudy Nights has their Vintage binocular thread and there are some rare threads on here about this type of binocular but they are few and far between.
I wish I could remember how I got started on this track but I can't say I do at the moment. It started a little over a month and a half ago with a purchase of two Tasco International 7x35 EWAs. They turned out to be "ok" overall. Their field of view was impressive at 11 degrees but there were some optical characteristics that didn't really appeal to me as well. So, then I picked up the Swift Sky King 7x35. There is a thread posted about that experience along with some great input from our resident Swift experts over in the Swift forum. Since then I have binged a bit and picked up quite a few Extra/Ultra/Super wide angle models via the bay. You really can find some great deals on these models on there. Some are in mint condition and for very small sums of money. Yes, they are not waterproof and their apparent brightness and contrast levels typically aren't at the level of current binoculars. This is mostly the result of their only being single-coated. If you can get past those issues then you are in for a treat. These binoculars can be quite addicting. The field of view is wide. Really wide. They make many current "wide angle" models seem like looking through a porthole. Their apparent sharpness, collectively, is also very, very good. I can see some very fine details on birds visiting the backyard feeder. I have tried to find out as much information on them via the web as possible and have turned up some great tips. There isn't as much as I would like though. One forum contributor both here and over on cloudy nights, Simon S, has a wonderful Flickr page with some great pics and descriptions. With his pages in mind I decided to start one of my own. The link is below. I just started working on it today but thought that every little bit helps add to the collective wisdom on these models. I will continue to add to it as new models arrive. Hope it provides some enjoyment for those that appreciate this classic porro design. http://www.flickr.com/photos/7302996...th/6590555331/ Last edited by FrankD : Thursday 29th December 2011 at 00:24. |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 02:08
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#2 |
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Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Michigan Watershed
Posts: 940
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Very interesting. given that i am an obligate eye glass wearer, I skip these types at flea markets, due to the common metal limitations on the ER. So, you remove those "eye cups"?
The build quality on many of this class and vintage is impressive.
__________________
"If there is a heaven, and i am allowed entrance, I will ask for no more than an endless living world to walk through and explore. I will carry with me an inexhaustible supply of notebooks from which i can send back reports to the more sedentary spirits." E.O. Wilson |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 03:12
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#3 |
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passionate binophilo "poet"
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mid-Atlantic Region
Posts: 3,105
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Wow! Watch out Simon, here comes Frank D. nipping at your heels. :-)
Frank D. wrote: "I wish I could remember how I got started on this track but I can't say I do at the moment. It started a little over a month and a half ago with a purchase of two Tasco International 7x35 EWAs." Do you mean a little over a year and a half ago? Hard to imagine that you spent "a great deal of time and resources in acquainting [your]self with some classic porros" in only a month and a half! Either that or you've been one busy beaver eBayer! (say that 10x fast :-) I spent about 10 years acquainting myself with some classic porros, most of which weren't considered "classics" back then. Here's my first review of a porro in 2003: http://www.excelsis.com/1.0/entry/sw...0296582fb09471 Attached is a photo of some of the porros I owned (with one lone roof standing out in the collection). I still have the 8x and 10x EIIs (though the 10x is a newer black body model), the Sears 7x50, the 804 MC H/R5 Audubon, and the Nikon 7x35 WF. The 12x50 SE (first from left, second row) morphed into a 10x42 SE). The EIIs, the Audubons, the 8x35 Nikon WF, and the Fujis are all WA bins (though not EWA). Not sure about the 8.8* 8x30 EII and the 9.3* 7x35 WF. Where does WA stop and EWA begin? Brock
__________________
The human impact on biological diversity... Last edited by brocknroller : Thursday 29th December 2011 at 03:17. |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 03:50
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#4 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NE Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,203
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I "birded" for over 10 years in Philadelphia watching the "BIRDS" at Veteran's Stadium in home games with an XW Sears 7 x 35 through the 1970's. I bought it new for $25.00. It is coated - but barely. The glass looks almost pure white. But they were great for watching football. 525' FOV at 1000 yards. My brother still has them but he likes my 6 x 30 Yosemite much better. And the Yosemite with it's modern coatings is much better for real birding.
Bob |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 12:51
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#5 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Jay,
All but two of the binoculars that I have listed have removable metal eyecups. That aids greatly with eye relief issues though if you wear eyeglasses I could see where the remaining metal rings may scratch your glasses. I do agree about the build quality you mentioned. Very, very good. Brock, It seems you have, or have experience with, quite a few of the bins that I managed to pick up. With regard to the Sears 7x50, I purchased it based on wanting 7x with a large exit pupil and a wide field of view. Not many that fit that bill. I am very pleased with it. If the ocular lenses weren't so recessed I would be able to see the field stops and therefore the full field of view. That was the reason I picked up the Binolux. Hopefully the new unit that I have arriving will be in better shape. I am glad you are still hanging onto that Nikon 7x35 WF. I love the view through that one. Not as wide as some of the others but very relaxed. I am surprised this one isn't mentioned more often with the likes of the E, EII and SE. In many ways it is very similar though it obviously can't match them in terms of coatings and therefore contrast or light transmission. Still love it though. This could easily be my full time glass. Lots of other "goodies" in that list. The Tasco I have is much, much better than one would think. Bob, I would agree that the Yosemite is an excellent binocular. None of these can really match it in terms of apparent contrast or brightness. Still, they have a great deal going for them. I do love picking each one up and looking through it. They each have a slightly different optical "flavor" that I find appealing. Last edited by FrankD : Friday 30th December 2011 at 00:33. |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 13:25
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#6 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tarraco,Iberian Peninsula
Posts: 1,404
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Frank...I have also "cruised " the internet at times,looking for optics and camera equipment rarities.Not so much since I moved to Spain,for many sellers dont wanna deal with international shipping and the shipping prices makes this activity more painful than fun.
But I remember some of the models you have manage to put together . One thing I remember about japanese manufactured optics of that vintage is that ,independent of the brand ,the actual manufacturer was marked in the binocular body with a number code..usually the letter J- or J-B, and then a number..pretty much like chinese optics today,they were comissioned but the brands and then imported into the West..It would be nice to find the actual manufacturers of your collected models and perhaps track their identity to their actual lineage You have missed some of the classic Bushnell models of that era,some of them made by Fuji,with their study and beautiful lines and exceptional optics,...The famous Custom line coming from that era was very nice..I owned many of the small customs(not again ,please!)and one beautiful 9x36 with fancy rubber extensible eyecups,and massive AFOV as well...But for massive FOV , sturdy body, beautiful pebbled finish and ,for what I have heard amazing optics , was the "Rangemaster" model, 7x35 , featuring a 77 degree AFOV. It also has a huge separation between the objectives, probably adding to the 3-D "porro effect".. Last edited by mayoayo : Thursday 29th December 2011 at 13:49. |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 14:35
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#7 | |
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Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Michigan Watershed
Posts: 940
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Quote:
__________________
"If there is a heaven, and i am allowed entrance, I will ask for no more than an endless living world to walk through and explore. I will carry with me an inexhaustible supply of notebooks from which i can send back reports to the more sedentary spirits." E.O. Wilson |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 20:44
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#9 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Manuel,
Good suggestion. I actually found a website that had info on part of the manufacturing code equation. I will copy and paste the info below so anyone has access to it. It lists all of the JB numbers but none of the JE numbers. If someone has that info and can add it to this thread then that would be great. ...and I didn't quite miss out on the Bushnell models. The problem is that everyone knows how the Bushnell Elite porros, Rangemasters and the Bausch and Lomb models perform. They typically sell for more than I am willing to invest in one of these older models. I had bid, repeatedly, on one of the Rangemasters a week or so ago but the price kept going higher and higher. I forget what it actually went for but it was way more than I wanted to pay. I did receive some new units in the mail today. I will update the Flickr page this evening with the new models. Interestingly there is one specific body/eyepiece type that I find very enjoyable. The Binolux 7x35 that I have on my flickr page is identical to both a Jason and a Sears model I just received. The view is very unusual. Hard to describe. I will add more later. Jay, None of the older singe-coated models can match the Yosemite for pure color, light transmission and contrast. It is a great bino. I tend to prefer my 6x30 to the 8x30 because of the larger exit pupil but both are good. Truth be told I actually thought my 6x30 Yosemite had brighter and richer color (particularly the reds) than the 500xxx Nikon SE 8x32 I had this past fall. Scoutman, I am not sure if it is the same model but I had a gentleman offer me a 7x3- Bushnell Elite this past year. He wanted close to $400 for it. I love classic porros but, sadly, not that much.  Quote:
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 21:43
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#10 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tarraco,Iberian Peninsula
Posts: 1,404
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Good Lord!..It was a manufacturer for EACH unit!!!!
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 23:33
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#11 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Quote:
 Now that made me laugh. Seriously, yes, there are over 170 listed manufacturers of at least the housings if I am not mistaken. I do believe the JB is the housing and the JE is the final assembly. Someone correct me if I have that backwards. I did acquire four new models today...Jason Clipper, Tasco International 400, Sears 6230 and Mayflower 110070. I added each to the site but wanted to comment further on the Jason model. The Jason appears to be identical externally, and internally for that matter, to the Binolux 7x35 mentioned previously. These units give me a totally different impression optically in comparison to any of the others. They have a listed 578 foot field of view but the images are more "immersive" for lack of a better word. You feel much more like you are "in the image" rather than looking at it. I believe this is the result of specific ocular design and the fact that I can get my eyes very close to the ocular surface. As mentioned earlier it, for some reason, instantly reminds me of the Nikon EII 8x30. Don't ask me why but it is the first thing that popped into my head when I looked through each of these models. A comparison pic is below..... |
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Thursday 29th December 2011, 23:51
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#12 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: ND
Posts: 1,668
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Frank:
Interesting your quest in getting some of these porros. I agree, they may be a fun option and the build quality of these Japanese types is very good. I am wondering however, how many of these have some issues, with dust inside, fungus, scratches, etc. that make them less than desired. I am thinking it is probably a 50:50 chance. How have you fared so far? I suppose those watching, need to hear about both the good and the bad. Jerry |
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Friday 30th December 2011, 00:17
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#13 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 445
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Frank,
I too have found vintage uber wide angle porros to be quite fascinating. I acquired a good number of them to include some models which have repeatedly been identified as excellent. Unfortunately I found that they didn't hold as much appeal as some others I had found. So I no longer have any other than my personal favorites. They're a lot of fun! :)
__________________
--Bob Bins: Swaro 7x42 B SLC; ZenRay 7x36 ED2; Pentax 8x32DCF-WP/9x21UCF; Minox BD6.5x32 IF; Leupold GR 9x35IF/8x30Yosemite; Dakota 7x28; Binolux 7x35s 11° & 10.5°; ZOMZ 6x30 12.5° |
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Friday 30th December 2011, 00:19
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#14 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Jerry,
Oh, there certainly are issues to be concerned about. Several of them have had to be cleaned internally. For some of them it is a fairly easy task. Others it is not. I would say about 1/4 of them have had some type of internal dust/fungus. I cleaned all but one to my satisfaction. Two have come slightly out of collimation and that condition is noted in the review for each on the Flickr page. I am contemplating sending them off to Sudarth Optical or NRC optics to have them recollimated. Most of the others are in surprisingly good condition both optically and mechanically. All of them have some wear...usually on the edges of the metal housings. I tend to expect them to be in decent/good condition when I buy them based on what the seller describes and their past auctions/feedback info. Of course the buyer should also check if there is a return policy from the seller. Keep in mind we are talking about $10-$40 purchases so expectations shouldn't be high to begin with. |
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Friday 30th December 2011, 20:17
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#16 |
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John Dracon
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: White Sulphur Springs, Montana
Posts: 516
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Frank, in my almost 60 years of collecting binoculars, I have had many, many Japanese binoculars pass through my hands, from the occupied Japan era through today. Some early models were optically good but rather tinny. When the German moved away from porros, paying homage to the Japanese now making superior porros, (with a few exceptions such as the Zeiss 8x30B, 7x50B and 15x60B, etc.) several so-called vintage models by Bushnell, Swift, and B&L have shone for their durability and overall optical quality in spite of single coatings. I have a Bushnell 7x50 called the bino foto which has the best edge to edge resolution compared to any 7x50 made today. The Bushnell Customs, all models, were outstanding optically and mechanically. Sure my SE 8x32 and EIIs, and Zeiss FL 8x32, are better, but not by a whole lot. Regarding fungus growth, that is a function of where the binocular has been. Out of the hundreds of Customs passing through my hands, I have had only one with fungus on the lens and prisms. That must have spent some time in New Guinea in the fungus belt. Msny of the B&L Zephyrs are as sound today as when they were built, and a whole lot lighter. My Yosemite 6x30 is an amazing piece of optics for its price, but it has plastic construction which may not pass the test of time. The vintage models mentioned above have. IMO the reason that many Yosemite users of the 6x30 find it so useful and appealing is because of its power and good coatings, it lower power yielding benefits not immediately recognized, including the 5 mm exit pupil, good FOV, and light weight. There are still many vintage bargains out there, particularly the Custom 7x35 Rangemaster which is an extremely comfortable binocular to use. John
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Friday 30th December 2011, 21:49
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#17 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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John,
Thank you for posting. You are one of the folks that I hoped would contribute to this thread. I know you have a fascination for porros and have owned many of the more current ones that I have. To hear that you have owned some of these models is also comforting. I do plan on continuing to keep an eye out for several of the models you mentioned. As I commented above, some of them are well known though and typically sell for more than I am willing to pay. Maybe one will sneak past everyone else's radar. I do want to share one experience I had today. I stopped by one of the local quarries to glass for any waterfowl present. I had the Jason Clipper, Sears 7x50, Nikon WF and the Tasco 116 with me (along with the little Nikon ED50). Glassing huge expanses of Canada Geese looking for an odd duck or two mixed into the flock of 1000 birds was really enjoyable with these porros. The 3D effect coupled with the great apparent sharpness and expansive field of view made the overall experience quite memorable. I did have two roof prism models along as well. They showed me the same birds. Their "objective performance" was better than the porros but the field performance of the porros is unmatched. I am glad folks are overlooking the classic porro design. |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 00:28
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#18 |
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John Dracon
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: White Sulphur Springs, Montana
Posts: 516
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Frank -
As you know the Bushnell Customs generally allow folks wearing eye glasses to get close enough to see most of the field. But as the powers increase from 7x35 to 8x36 and 9x36 ER becomes an issue, particularly with the 9x36 which has a very large field. These old Customs have UV filters which may affect the color a smidgen, but looking over snowy fields and water, it helps a little. In the later period of the Customs, Bushnell introduced the Insta Focus knob under the right ocular, and in my dogmatic opinion, it is the worst design they ever created. Too much slop and over focusing. Their teeter totter focus mechanism on cheaper and later models should relegate the designer to a special place in binocular hell, too. Comments from and old cranky senior. a grumpy old man. For about a couple of bucks one can protect the eye glasses by a very simple method when the eye cups are removed to gain greater ER - this advice is not relevant to the Customs but rather to some of Bushnell featherweight and Featherlight models when the eye cup is removed. Access a plastic template with various size circles, the kind used by draftsman, and get the 3-M sticky back safety tread material available at most hardware stores. Avoid the grit. Get the pebbled rubber finished material (get the two inch wide stuff) and on the paper side, draw several circles creating a wide enough ring to cover the area where the eye cups were. Use a small sissors and snip out your flat ring. When the paper is removed, press the rings on the metal surfaces surrounding the lens, and you will have an easily removed protective ring and enhanced ER. I will share a tip to you and other bincocular "nuts". Bushnell made some excellent porros (B&L style) with magnesium bodies in the 8x40 model, both IF and CF, in the 1950's. These have BK-4 prisms and are hard coated with special oculars. They are marked triple tested, featherlight, 7 degree 1 minute on the upper shelf. These are truly outstanding binoculars. While they lack the brilliant colors of today's multi-coated binoculars, their resolution and wide sweet spot make them very comfortable to use. With the eye cups removed and the simple sticky back rings on the occulars, most eye glass wearers can get the full view. If you find one in good shape, snap it up. You won't be disappointed. Hope this is helpful. John |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 02:57
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#19 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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John,
That is some excellent info. Nothin' on the bay matching that description at the moment but I have it saved on my "favorite searches" and will keep an eye out for it. Truth be told I am finding several very good 7x35s from a variety of companies that I never handled not to mention heard of. Glad that nobody else has either. If you think of any other classic porro tidbits you would like to share then they would be appreciated. Happy New Years. |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 05:35
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#20 |
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John Dracon
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: White Sulphur Springs, Montana
Posts: 516
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Frank - Bushnell made a economy 7x35 under the Banner label. It was not up to the quality of the Customs but had prism clusters removal for cleaning and repairs by loosing a few screws. It can be picked up for 10-15 bucks. As many readers know, Swift made some very good binoculars, particularly the Neptune Mark II which had a wide field without bulk and the Audubon 8.5x44.
Before Canon went to their electronic stuff, they had a nice porro line, with the 7x35 IMO the best. I find the Canon 7x35 superior optically to the B&L Zephyrs, although I know some collectors will disagree. The Canon and B&L line had the best leather cases, many 50 years old and still in good condition. The Zeiss 8x30 B model is very nice but discontinued and fetching a premium price. Other than the Fujinon IF 8x30 rubber covered porro, the Kern IF 8x30 porro is the toughest porro I've ever used. Older IF porros unless really abused are usually in perfect alignment and while not advertised as water proof seem to me to be the closest thing to it. And they are lighter. My first porro was a Bushnell 7x35 monocular. I couldn't afford anything else. But it was fragile - I banged it on a saddle horn and chipped a prism. But its optics to young eyes were excellent. I have found that the Zeiss porros, not the Jena models, have the most precise prism seats of any porro I have cleaned, even ones made before WW2. Quality roofs will handle shock better than most porros. Some very good European porros have IMO chintzy collimation sustems. Take the ultra light older Optolyth porro models. A small screw pushing against the side of the prism is used in collimation. The B&L 3 screw system on the objectives is time tested, but I believe the double eccentric rings systems employed by my older Japanese porros is superior to any other system. John |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 14:13
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#21 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 393
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Least ways I've cold trailed one scoundrel responsible for my inflated auction wins.
As if that weren't quite enough he's the gall to post other's research, so the truly lazy can avoid the work reaping the benefits. En garde Monsieur Franke. Perchance the taste of my steel will dull your whetted appetite, for enlightening the knaves, departing bitter, languishing aftertaste for flagrant interloping in divulging secrets of the optical elite. Squire, assemble your steed and valet tout de suite as the field of honor awaits to reward your treachery. Bon appetit! |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 15:41
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#22 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Uhh, yeah....fancy talk right back at ya.
Anywho....let me know what you plan on bidding on and I won't bid against ya. I like making things easy. I know the time and effort it took me to find any/all of the info that I have on some of these classic porros. The next time someone goes to do the same it will be much easier as I am sure this thread will pop up on Google relatively easily. Have a Happy New Year gents. |
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Saturday 31st December 2011, 17:57
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#23 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 393
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It's all in fun Frank. I found the same Googlin'. To date I've steered clear of the vintage Japanese glass, but I've still researched it a bit. Knowing nothing all you have to do is watch the auction. Early action seeing how high folks have bid is a sure indicator that some interesting glass is up for grabs.
I was outbid the other day. I checked the bids and the gent would've paid close to a hundred bucks less if I hadn't of bid. I would've recieved the same sweet price if he hadn't of bid. Likewise I've won bids recently only to have someone come in and run my price up 60-70 bucks. It's just the nature of the beast. On the other hand I bid early and first on some mil spec porros and one person came by and bid just enough to see if I'd bid any more than the minimum and they were done. Cost me 2 extra bucks. Thanks for the offer Frank, but I'd be afraid to call your attention to anything I was hoping to win. I understand you make it rain when you bid. And BOT I just received a Bausch & Lomb 7x35 11* Legacy. For a guy that's used to narrow FOV this little glass seems to show a country mile. Apparently the squat bins are sturdy. They were wrapped twice in brown paper and submerged inside of a USPS 14x12x3.5, if it fits it ships, priority box. I'd guesstamate that a dozen would easily fit inside. You'd have thought he could've stuffed it w/leaves if newspaper wasn't available. Fingerprints covering the objective lens, but after I cleaned them they aren't bad at all for a low power w/lots of real estate. The perfect loaner except I'll have to wait until the new wears off the 11* view. Last edited by Nixterdemus : Saturday 31st December 2011 at 18:16. |
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Sunday 1st January 2012, 22:55
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#24 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 445
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Quote:
__________________
--Bob Bins: Swaro 7x42 B SLC; ZenRay 7x36 ED2; Pentax 8x32DCF-WP/9x21UCF; Minox BD6.5x32 IF; Leupold GR 9x35IF/8x30Yosemite; Dakota 7x28; Binolux 7x35s 11° & 10.5°; ZOMZ 6x30 12.5° Last edited by Bob A (SD) : Sunday 1st January 2012 at 23:03. |
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Monday 2nd January 2012, 03:25
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#25 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,405
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Thanks Bob. Funny you should mention the Jason Statesman. I just picked one up today. Saw some positive comments on it over on Cloudy Nights so I though I would add it to my selection.
Those are some beautiful pieces of glass in that pic. Thank you for sharing. |
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