[BirdingRob]

Having seen stonechat all winter with most being eastern stonechat, I am perplexed by this bird. Records show, we get a few passage whinchat in spring apparently

Which chat is it, please?

Sorry I only have one picture

Rob www.birdingforalark.blogspot.com

[DMW]

Stonechat for me.

[Peewit]

Whinchat with that white supercillion

Regards
Kathy
x

[StuartReeves]

Originally Posted by DMW

Stonechat for me.

Agreed.

[cameron2]

Yep its a winchat. Female spring plumage

[lou salomon]

surely of the maurus/variegatus group of stonechat. no whinchat has a dark chin/throat for starters.

[BirdingRob]

A split verdict so far! Here's my take which I held back on saying so as not to lead (or look silly :-)

I don't like the lack of orange throat for it to be a whinchat. I dont like the strength of the supercillium for it to be a stonechat. I haven't even seen a first winter male eastern stonechat (nevermind European) with that strong a supercillium. Also I can see a hint of a spotted rump (if you look carefully) which rules out eastern stonechat anyway.

Cheers Rob

[BirdingRob]

Lou.

You posted while I was composing the last one. I always admire your insights!

[KenM]

Female/1st Winter male Whinchat...the apparant dark area beneath chin and throat in my opinion is shadow...looks like a standard Whinchat..with perhaps a little more white above the greater coverts than might be expected.

cheers

[Silverstar24]

Whinchat for me too.

[DMW]

Believe me, if you ever spend time looking for Stoliczka's Bushchat in western India, you will find quite a lot of Stonechats with as annoyingly well-marked supercillia as this bird!

[Motmot]

Originally Posted by lou salomon

surely of the maurus/variegatus group of stonechat. no whinchat has a dark chin/throat for starters.

I also see a certain Stonechat here. No problem with eyebrows in many female type birds.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20..._6501_680h.jpg

[John Cantelo]

Originally Posted by lou salomon

surely of the maurus/variegatus group of stonechat. no whinchat has a dark chin/throat for starters.

I agree - the white smudge on the back fits too and there's no sign of the white bases to the tail. Google pictures 'Eastern Stonechat' and you'll find several similar birds. The supercilium does look stronger thanin most, but this can be exaggerated by the angle/light etc. I also wonder if Whinchat would be present so early so for me it's certainly not a Whinchat,

[birdboybowley]

Stonechat for sure

[KenM]

Originally Posted by John Cantelo

I agree - the white smudge on the back fits too and there's no sign of the white bases to the tail. Google pictures 'Eastern Stonechat' and you'll find several similar birds. The supercilium does look stronger thanin most, but this can be exaggerated by the angle/light etc. I also wonder if Whinchat would be present so early so for me it's certainly not a Whinchat,

According to the range map in Collins...they Winter in the Middle East region.

[BirdingRob]

Yes, Collins does say Whinchat winter where I saw this bird though the two best historical local recorders only have them in spring and autumn. However I have seen other birds in winter they only saw in passage (eg wryneck). So I would give Collins the credibility.

Also please note this bird does have a partly spotted rump which you can see in the picture if you look carefully. I am not saying it is a whinchat, it just doesn't look like any eastern stonechat I have seen up to now.

[njlarsen]

Originally Posted by BirdingRob

Also please note this bird does have a partly spotted rump which you can see in the picture if you look carefully. I am not saying it is a whinchat, it just doesn't look any eastern stonechat I see.

Huh? I see undertail coverts and flank but no rump on this one ?

Niels

[BirdingRob]

Niels, maybe I am seeing things on the lower flank, taking it as rump.

Anyway I have finally reached my own conclusion about the bird (rightly or wrongly)! I just visited the Wikipedia entry on Siberian stonechat. Its very good! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Stonechat.

I quote "males in winter plumage are intermediate between summer males and females with a supercilium resembling a whinchat". There is a picture of a male bird in winter plumage (from India) which is very close to my bird.

I guess Collins (Europe)and Helms (Middle east) can't show every gender/season possibility and I have not been looking hard enough at all the stonechat here.

Once again its been a learning curve. Thanks for everyones help.

Rob www.birdingforalark.blogspot.com

[Jane Turner]

Its a certain Stonechat probably an eastern one

edit: Just to support that- look at the head (broader/flatter) shape in comparison to the body and the apparent short wings. Though you can't see the tips, I'd expect a Whinchat to have them "disappear" rather further down the tail

[Brian J Small]

Originally Posted by njlarsen

Huh? I see undertail coverts and flank but no rump on this one ?

Niels

A difficult angle, but maybe I am the only one to see a European Stonechat in this. Is there a displaced uppertail covert with a dark centre? Is the colour of the underparts too strong for Siberian? Is there indistinct streaking on flanks?

I feel sure Stenura will be able to help....

Brian S

[BirdingRob]

Brian,

The displaced uppertail covert was what I thought I saw and commented on earlier but I withdraw my remark when others didn't see it. This is one of the reasons I had doubts it was an eastern stonechat .

But surely winter male European stonechat don't show the strong whinchat-like supercilium found in eastern stonechats. Do they? Hmm

Rob

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by Brian J Small

A difficult angle, but maybe I am the only one to see a European Stonechat in this. Is there a displaced uppertail covert with a dark centre? Is the colour of the underparts too strong for winter? Is there indistinct streaking on flanks?

I feel sure Stenura will be able to help....

Brian S

I really can't see enough to be sure! You can almost make a case for white in the base of the outer TF..., but not quite.

Knowing its age would help...I was thinking Ad female on what I can make out on the coverts... but I'm not sure of that either

[Motmot]

Originally Posted by BirdingRob

But surely winter male European stonechat don't show the strong whinchat-like supercilium found in eastern stonechats. Do they? Hmm

Rob

Female European Stonechats do often show quite distinctive superciliums.

[dantheman]

More Stonechat jizz for me (eg longer tail) as opposed to Whinchat.

Definite spot above rump imo, as others mention = Eurasian. White bar on wing more in line with Stonechat?

Think there is some shadow on the throat, of the bill, but there is greyish feathering there also.

Originally Posted by Motmot

Female European Stonechats do often show quite distinctive superciliums.

eg here - http://www.lundybirds.co.uk/photographs_archive.html (scroll down maybe a fifth of the way to oct 2009)

[Kingfisher21]

I see a female stonechat, exactly like the Eurasian ones I get to watch all year round.