[james holdsworth]

He also says of the HT ''This will be a core hunting product''.

[St. Elmo]

Leica Ultravid to Ultravid HD, an old view plus 1% (my terminology)

Swaro EL to Swarovision, a NEW VIEW (again my terminology)

Let's see if Victory FL to Victory HT is another, ho-hum, old view plus 1%...

I didn't replace my Ultravids because an old view plus 1% isn't worth it
I won't replace my Victory FLs for the same reason

[dalat]

Originally Posted by henry link

... but you will not be disappointed, price, resolution, flat field distortions, transmission, durability... all better."

The only thing from this list we know anything about so far is the price (the one advertised on orniwelt.de) and that looks certainly better, for Zeiss that is.

As for "core hunting product", I still don't get it. What makes one 8x42 with centre focus more suitable for birding or hunting than another 8x42? Of course a Zeiss marketing guy will tell to hunters "a products for hunters made by hunters" and to birders "a product for birders made by birders". And he's right, both want good optics and good ergonomics.

[henry link]

dalat,

I hope nobody thinks that quote comes from me! I was quoting one of Zeiss' executive sales people. We optics geeks don't use nonsense phrases like "flat field distortions".

Henry

[dalat]

Sorry for that badly done quotation, if it would be from you I'd never dare to criticize it

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by NDhunter

Brock:
It does seem the rumor mill on the next uber optic, has now entered the twilight zone
of one, "your" opinion of what hunters will purchase. There is one thing I do know, Swaro. has the largest slice of the optics market with hunters, and along with birders, many know
what they desire in a quality optic.

Jerry

Well, I'm glad you know at least one thing! :-)

Here's something else to learn. Even though Swaros are very popular among hunters and dominate the premium optics category over Leica and Zeiss, compared to the multiude of Monarchs, Bushnells, Therons, Hawkes, and other more reasonably priced bins bought by hunters, Swaros make up a relatively small portion of sales to US hunters.

In recent years, Swaro has also been targeting birders, since they don't have all that other investment in equipment to make, other than some who have spotting scopes. For birders bins are the end until themselves. Hence, the more neutral color image today and closer focuser in Swaros.

Now, of course, top end bins get lots of discussion on hunting forums just as they do here, but that doesn't mean that hunters are buying them en masse.

Btw, I've read the exact statement I made in my above post dozens of times on hunting forums. So it's not my "twilight zone" opinion, but gleaned from reading 24hrcampfire, Optics Talk, and other hunting forums.

So now you know two things! :-)

Brock

[FrankD]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

Frank. Don't even go there about who buys and sells more binoculars. We all know who is the King!

I bow down to lilcrazy when it comes to that topic.

I finally figured out who bought those 9 pairs of Dakota Elites last summer!

[lilcrazy2]

Originally Posted by FrankD

I bow down to lilcrazy when it comes to that topic.

I finally figured out who bought those 9 pairs of Dakota Elites last summer!

Frank
I did not buy all those Dakota Elites last summer - only the 1 pair I reported on. Late last fall, I had donated some bins to the local Nature Conservatory which runs programs for kids at the new Riverwalk Observation Center, but more were needed.

In mid Dec. a listing came up again for the 7x28 Dakota Elites for $12.99 each and I negotiated a sale of all 12 binos remaining. I donated 8 pairs to the Conservatory, and put the others up on the bay to try and break even.

But I have bought 6 other binos for testing in the last 3 weeks

Tom

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by NDhunter

Henry, you are correct.

I am thinking those features mentioned are to be expected in a new .

Jerry

A Field Flattener lens. Hmmm. Sharp edges. Rolling or not rolling.

[Kammerdiner]

Originally Posted by lilcrazy2

...
In mid Dec. a listing came up again for the 7x28 Dakota Elites for $12.99 each and I negotiated a sale of all 12 binos remaining. I donated 8 pairs to the Conservatory, and put the others up on the bay to try and break even.
...
Tom

Good idea, Tom. I've volunteered at various places like that over the years and having those bins available will get kids (people generally) to appreciate nature more.


I can't for my life figure out what a "hunting specific" or "birding specific" bin would be. Over the years some bins have been specifically sold as "birding bins" but that was just marketing, too. I mean if these HT's are for hunting, then what would be changed for birding? And why wouldn't a hunter want that change?

I think Zeiss was just telling a hunting forum what a hunting forum would want to hear.

The Zeiss FL focus knob works great with gloves on because it's big, it's smooth and it sits up high. That HT knob looks like it sits lower and it may not be easier with gloves. I could be wrong.

I stepped out today to look at Tundra Swans in a cold rain with gloves on, and I took the FL. Sweet.

Mark

[Giorgio]

I am selling a fresh young human liver, 1945.00 euros.
Now i gotta go resting, i feel extremely tired.

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by NDhunter

Brock:
It does seem the rumor mill on the next uber optic, has now entered the twilight zone
of one, "your" opinion of what hunters will purchase. There is one thing I do know, Swaro. has the largest slice of the optics market with hunters, and along with birders, many know
what they desire in a quality optic.
This thread is like many with the anticipation of the next, newest, best optic to enter
the market.
I do hope Zeiss will please us with a nice new binocular, the competition is very good.
If it is just a FL with new armor, without a better full field optics design, and an Edge to edge view, then I think the Zeiss will have missed the mark, and what I would expect in
a top rated binocular.

So, we will all see, when the new models enter the marketplace.

Jerry

I originally tacked these comments on to my reply as a "P.S." but the PS became longer than the original post, so I'm posting them here in a separate post. Also deleted a paragraph that might potentially cause inflammatory bowel.

P.S. An important issue in hunter's buying habits that needs to be taken into consideration in your comments above is that most hunters hold on to their bins longer than birders.

Take mooreorless as an example. He had his SLC for 20 years. Traded it in for an SLCneu and got half off! Despite the discussions of the latest alphas on hunting optics forums, many hunters say they will be holding on to their SLCs or old ELs (or Leupolds or whatever they have) rather than coughing up $2K for HDs and SV ELs or another alpha. As a reader and poster of hunting optics forums, that shouldn't surprise you.

The reason Swaro brought out the CL line was to address this issue of the growing gap btwn the "haves" and "have nots" and that's even how they marketed them.

Who's doing their sport in the winter months when they need bright optics? Who needs to travel "light" because they are humping a whole load of other equipment?

The CL was designed to replace the 8x30 SLC, which was popular with hunters. However, it didn't seem to catch on with birders from the comments on these forums, I think primarily due to modest FOV. Then again, the 8x30 SLC was never the darling of birders either, with its long close focus and objective side focuser.

Having said that, Nikon needs to sell about 10 Monarchs to equal the value of the sale of one 8.5x SV EL. But what matters more than sales volume is the profit each companies makes from the bins they sell.

Even if Nikon sells more units, if the profit margin is thin, it takes a lot more units to turn a good profit. OTOH, if the mark up on Swaros is steeper, Swaro needs to sell less to make the same profit.

But since we don't know (do we?) what the company's actual cost is vs. our cost, we can't determine if mass market beats specialty sales. With cheap Chinese labor, one would think so.

Though not a hunter myself, reading hunting optics forums and from many "conversations" with mooreorless about hunting optics, I've learned "a thing or two" about the buying habits of hunters. I'm not sure about Rod Serling. :-)

Brock

[hinnark]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

The hunters out here must have more money and I agree with NDhunter they have mostly Swarovski's.

Don't know the situation with rifle scopes but with binoculars over here the hunting market is dominated by Zeiss, still with a substantial portion of 8x56 Dialyts.

Steve

[temmie]

...and that's exactly why Zeiss made the HT bins. They have a very high light transmission for a x42, so they will market them towards the hunting market as being very light (compared to x56), sturdy enough (with the new magnesium (or at least some kind of metal) body), and very bright.

The little bird at Zeiss told me that this is what the hunting market would like to have (or at least, this is what Zeiss thinks the hunting market is willing to buy into). Hunters observe deer at twilight (dusk and down) from their high seats at the edge of the forest, so they need all the light they can have to monitor the groups of deer.

What this means for birders is for everybody here to decide. I feel Zeiss has, again, brought something out that isn't necessarily the perfect bin for birders, but at least it is intriguing and has some qualities (or a set of qualities) no other bin has (like that impressive transmission). For the FOV, maybe it isn't impressive, but maybe they didn't increase it to have a somewhat 'easier' job to preserve edge sharpness.

And last of my information, there is nothing else coming out (no 'BT'), any time soon (so this is it )

[dalat]

Originally Posted by temmie

so they will market them towards the hunting market as being very light (compared to x56), sturdy enough (with the new magnesium (or at least some kind of metal) body), and very bright.

... and they will market it with exactly the same arguments towards the birding market. The x42 HTs have all specs of a typical birding binocular. And why birders should be bothered by more brightness, better sturdyness (if it really is) and better ergonomics?

Originally Posted by temmie

very light (compared to x56)

A few more % in transmission still do not make a x42 outperform a x50 or x56 bin at night. Many hunters will stick to their x50 or x56 bins, and may want to get the HT only when it comes in that configration.

[henry link]

Originally Posted by dalat

A few more % in transmission still do not make a x42 outperform a x50 or x56 bin at night. Many hunters will stick to their x50 or x56 bins, and may want to get the HT only when it comes in that configration.

Quite true. Using a 50mm binocular instead of a 42mm is the equivalent of increasing the light transmission of the 42mm by 41%. Using a 56mm binocular is equivalent to increasing the transmission of the 42mm by 78%.

[james holdsworth]

I have found that the perceptable difference in brightness from a 42 to a 50 to only be few minutes, dawn and dusk. Maybe [at 47] my eyes are too old to be able to dilate enough to make a 50 essential.

Anyway, for most a 50 or 56 is too big and bulky when a 42 [or even 32] works as well for most of the day.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by dalat

HT, I like it! Everyone now has HD, ED and all this, but only Zeiss has HT

I don't want to speculate about the optics, but for the ergonomics the pics are promising. It has been said above, the narrow hinge between the barrel and the focus wheel probably allow for a more comfortable grip than the Swaro SLC HD or Nikon EDG, perhaps even the Swaro EL. And as the focus wheel has bearings on both sides, it runs probably quite smoothly.

I also don't really see why this bin should target hunters more than birders. High transmission is certainly of interest for both, and for ergonomics I also don't see any difference between both's demands.

I think HT means Hunting. These binoculars were designed just as the Zeiss executives said for the hunter. They are more rugged, they are heavier and the focus wheel is bigger for the hunters often times gloved hands. I would wager even the coatings are optimized for the type of lighting a hunter would use them in most meaning dawn and twilight. For that reason it might be a long time if ever before you see one in an 8x32. You will probably see them in 50mm and 56mm apertures before 32mm.

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by james holdsworth

I have found that the perceptable difference in brightness from a 42 to a 50 to only be few minutes, dawn and dusk. Maybe [at 47] my eyes are too old to be able to dilate enough to make a 50 essential.

Anyway, for most a 50 or 56 is too big and bulky when a 42 [or even 32] works as well for most of the day.

Hunter use a 50mm and 56mm in a stand situation where the binoculars can be supported. You sit in a blind with your big 56mm apertures in the early morning hours and scan until you see antlers or whatever it is you are hunting.

[RJM]

The 30mm class is by far the most common bino used on our S. Texas bowhunting ranch. Hunting is allowed 30min before sunrise until 30min after sunset. Never recall seeing a hunter with a Euro-bino, though I should state that I only visit 2-3 weeks of the season on average. Mostly Bushnell and Nikon and in camo armor.

[james holdsworth]

Originally Posted by denco@comcast.n

I think HT means Hunting. These binoculars were designed just as the Zeiss executives said for the hunter. They are more rugged, they are heavier and the focus wheel is bigger for the hunters often times gloved hands. I would wager even the coatings are optimized for the type of lighting a hunter would use them in most meaning dawn and twilight. For that reason it might be a long time if ever before you see one in an 8x32. You will probably see them in 50mm and 56mm apertures before 32mm.

The HT is for ''High Transmittance'', for the HT Schott glass.

[Chosun Juan]

Originally Posted by elkcub

What's wrong with these people? All that effort and hoopla and they come up with a marginal 16 mm eye relief in both models, and possibly greater transmission in the eye-damaging blue region. Oh, well.

Ed

Exactly! + a slight bit more tr% in more desireable wavelengths, and "flat field distortions"
(although "We optics geeks don't use nonsense phrases like" that!)

It seems that progress has come down to incremental increments on the increments!
Nothing incremental about the price though!

No revolutionary increase in FOV, or (ER)- (interesting discussions by Mark, ronh, and Ed, re:- Swaro vs Zeiss, each finding it a lil different?!)

The biggest chuckle for me though is the unofficial renaming, by the desperate snippet seekers, and slobbering masses already, as a HunTing bin
What the ??!!

Apparently HeaTed "discussions" were heard in neighbouring suburbs this morning, from the Zeiss Head-quarTers boardroom .....

"Ay yi yi yi yi ......"
"Das! uber nincompoop loudenboomer dummkopf!!" ....
"Das mega Euro up in flammen! danks zu einstein marketing brain-enhausen-vorks!!"
"Sack dem alle!!!"
"Ve even haf vun Englishmun on das telephon dis morgen vanting zu know if ve includen scones mit every HT !!!!"
"How on ze earth vill diese Dorftrottels ve able zu afforden $2000 Euro!!! ifen zey unable zu tie zeir shoelacen ??!!"

Perhaps the marketeers have done too good a job selling the "HunTing" benefits to the HunTing market? ....
hardly going to expouse the improved feather resolution are they now?
Relax ...... just horses for courses folks!

I don't think there's anything to it other than "Thanks to the use of HT-High Transmission Schott glass" to quote the OP link .....



Chosun
__________________________________________________ ___________

P.S. ..... please no obvious dissing of my post as a storm in a "HT" cup! ;-))

[spacepilot]

I just got an email about the Zeiss Victory HT because I signed up for their newsletters. The blurb is the usual marketing mumble jumble. The most interesting thing in the email to me is a frontal view of the HT in the email. The top bridge is wider than the impression I got from the photos. A quick comparison shows that the HT focuser sits lower and is proportionally narrower than the focuer on the 8x FL models. It makes me wonder if the HT is better than the FL when used with gloves after all.

Originally Posted by Zeiss

Unrivalled brightness, thanks to a light transmission of up to more than 95% - this unique result is created by the innovative optical concept of the VICTORY HT binoculars. Their innovative and elegant design is no less a trendsetter. It delivers compact construction combined with perfect ergonomics and extreme ruggedness. An impressive feature is the new Comfort-Focus-Concept, which has a large focussing wheel for easy use. The double enclosing of the new Double-Link-Bridge guarantees maximum stability. This is how the brightest premium binoculars in the world combine the very highest levels of precision and durability.

[dalat]

Here's a more detailed front view (has been linked somehwere before already):

[denco@comcast.n]

Originally Posted by james holdsworth

I have found that the perceptable difference in brightness from a 42 to a 50 to only be few minutes, dawn and dusk. Maybe [at 47] my eyes are too old to be able to dilate enough to make a 50 essential.

Anyway, for most a 50 or 56 is too big and bulky when a 42 [or even 32] works as well for most of the day.

Alot of hunters use 50mm and 56mm apertures especially in a stand situation. It is a big design change. It will be interesting to see how the ergonomics are especially balance and how they feel in your hands.