[BirdsPeru]

Seems like I have all my gull pictures ID with the wrong names, so I will need some more help with this pictures.

They were taken in Argentina some kilometers from Buenos Aires. Hope any can help me. By the way, this pictures were taken going inside a cave so I use flash in the camera that washed out some details maybe.

Alejandro

[HouseCrow]

Could this be Kelp Gull?

cheers,
HouseCrow

[Rasmus Boegh]

Yes, that's a Kelp Gull (Larus dominicanus). Compared to other Argentinean gulls note white tail, dark upperparts and bill (shape & colour).

[BirdsPeru]

Thanks Rasmus and HouseCrow, I was thinking about Kelp Gull but this family still keep me confuse as there are many that look almost the same. As I mention it would be a long way until I learn to ID Gulls, but always learning something thanks to all in this forum.

Alejandro

[Fritz73]

It's a Kelp Gull (Larus dominicanus). There is only one Gull wich is similar: Olrog's Gull (Larus atlanticus) but in this case the colors in the bill are diferent and also tail.

[Katy Penland]

If I may ask what is undoubtedly a dumb question, but if this is an adult Kelp, why aren't the eyes yellow? The bird pictured is clearly dark-eyed.

[BirdsPeru]

Katy as far as I know, Kelp Gull (Larus dominicanus) have dark iris and not yellow one. The other similar bird is LBB and that one have yellow iris.

Now I am not an expert and talking about gulls need to learn a lot. So maybe I am wrong so let the experts say about this.

Alejandro

[Katy Penland]

Originally Posted by BirdsPeru

Katy as far as I know, Kelp Gull (Larus dominicanus) have dark iris and not yellow one. The other similar bird is LBB and that one have yellow iris.

Now I am not an expert and talking about gulls need to learn a lot. So maybe I am wrong so let the experts say about this.

Alejandro

I'm no expert, but the Sibley's book in my hand says about Larus dominicanus: "Pale grayish-yellow iris; red orbital ring," and the accompanying drawing shows yellow eyes in both breeding and non-breeding adult plumage. Only the first two years of this three-year gull show a dark eye.

Unless there's a regional variation in adult eye color?

[Larry Lade]

We are discussing what our "mystery gull" here in Missouri is. Some seem to think it is a Kelp Gull or Kelp/Herring hybrid. So your photos are of particular interest to me.

What color would you say your birds feet/legs are? To me they have a somewhat pinkish look. Sibley says that Kelp Gulls have dull greenish-gray to yellowish legs. I would think that a 3rd year bird should have a yellowish iris and a red orbital ring (as Katy mentioned). The bird in your photo does not show these characteristics. I am not familiar with South American Gulls, but I would think that this bird is not a Kelp Gull.

[Tommie Rogers]

Your gull has characteristics of a Kelp Gull, but it has a dark iris and pink/gray legs.
Kelp should have yellow/green legs and a yellow iris with a red orbital ring.
I am using Peter Harrison's SEABIRDS guide and Sibley's guide for this information.

[Rasmus Boegh]

This is a fine Kelp Gull, though I do understand the confusion. I have literally seen thousands (most of them in South America where these photos were taken) and the eye-ring is fine - it often appears very vague. Normally the eye is pale, but how pale seem to vary and also be dependant on illumination (note: the photos were taken inside a cave using a flash). The leg colouration is also well within the variation I have seen (check the second & third link for individuals with a similar colour of the legs). Do note that many gulls - especially when breeding - can show unusually pale legs; basically because they sit in their own faeces.

Here's a sample of photos showing Kelp's:

http://www.mangoverde.com/birdsound/...ic67-13-3.html
http://www.avesdechile.cl/149.htm
http://www.bway.net/~lewis/birds/trind/kelp-2.jpg
http://gianfvil.gamersrevolt.it/Sud%...20gull%202.htm
http://www.sunsetbeach.co.za/images/kelp_gull_01.jpg
http://www.abtao.cl/Imagenes/birdwa15.jpg
http://www.livingtravel.com/africa/s...s/bird0139.jpg
http://www.v-liz.co.uk/namibia/birds/kelpg.jpg

[Katy Penland]

Well, if the bird being discussed here, and the 5 -- now 8 -- internet examples Rasmus has given are indicative, then a light eye cannot be considered a diagnostic field mark for this species, since a light eye is not in evidence in any of the 9 pictures. Even taking that first URL of Rasmus' and brightening what is a terribly under-exposed photo, the eye is still dark.

It would appear that either the Sibley's guide (and accompanying drawings) overstates the lightness of the eyes for this sp, or eye color is highly variable (sub-species variation?). One thing for sure: It points up again that photo ID is less than reliable for accurate representation and is no substitute for concerted field observation.

Just for fun, here are some light-eyed kelps:

http://home.earthlink.net/~pomarine/id1.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~pomarine/id2.html
http://peter.maxitec.co.za/birdingaf...irds_Gull.html
http://www.mdbirds.org/birds/gallery/gallery4.html

Question for Rasmus and others who have seen lots of this species: Is flat-headedness a typical trait of kelp gulls? In many of the internet photos I ran across, when shot from the side the birds appear to be quite flat-headed.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Katy Penland

the 5 -- now 8 --

Sorry, as I often do I found a bit more to add - a bad habit I guess (and doing it again now )

Originally Posted by Katy Penland

Question for Rasmus and others who have seen lots of this species: Is flat-headedness a typical trait of kelp gulls? In many of the internet photos I ran across, when shot from the side the birds appear to be quite flat-headed.

Yes it is, but personally I obviously wouldn't use that feature alone.

In regards of variation of iris-colour in Kelp Gull: Yes, there appear to be some variation (ie. S. African Kelp's appear to be the ones where dark eyes are most frequent seen; ssp. vetula). However, there are many indications that the various subspecies of the Kelp Gull are invalid and the variation is probably nothing but individual (and, as mentioned previously, depending on light). In any case it is poorly understood at this point.

[Katy Penland]

LOL! When I went to post my earlier response, I did a double-take because I saw the number of URLs in your message had increased. :-) Please don't apologize, it's certainly not a bad habit to be so freely giving of your knowledge. Thanks for all of this info, BTW, it's been very instructive.

[Larry Lade]

Rasmus, would the red orbital ring be seen on a breeding Kelp, but not on a non-breeding Kelp? That is to say, do Kelp Gulls have this red orbital ring at certain times and not at other times or is it a constant in adult birds?

As I do not have a book on gulls, I am curious what other gulls, similiar to the Kelp, would be found in Argentina?

Perhaps a majority of the "Kelp" gulls found here in the United States might be hybrids with the Herring Gull. Some believe they may be F1 or F2 birds, referring to whether the parent birds were Kelp X Herring (F1) or [Kelp X Herring] X Herring (F2). I assume this is not the case for South American Kelp as Herring Gulls are a more northerly occuring gull. Is this correct?

Thank you to all for their input to this thread!

[Larry Lade]

The webmaster on our Audubon Society of Missouri (ASM) website has posted some additional photos of "our mystery gull".

Rasmus, and others, would you take a look at this website and offer your thoughts on what this "black-backed gull" is? In your estimations, is it a pure Kelp Gull, a hybrid Kelp X ? or perhaps something else. These photos were taken September 16, 2004, at Smithville Lake, Smithville, Missouri.

Here is the website:

http://mobirds.org/SmithvilleGULL.htm

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

Rasmus, would the red orbital ring be seen on a breeding Kelp, but not on a non-breeding Kelp? That is to say, do Kelp Gulls have this red orbital ring at certain times and not at other times or is it a constant in adult birds?

No, it is not dependant on breeding or non-breeding. However, as 1st & 2nd year individuals usually lack the red eye-ring competely, this may be a feature some individuals retain for a short period after having moulted into the typical ad. plumage (it is a "four-year-gull").

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

As I do not have a book on gulls, I am curious what other gulls, similiar to the Kelp, would be found in Argentina?

There is only one other large dark-backed gull in Argentina: Olrog's Gull (formerly part of Band-tailed). Easily separated by smaller size, obvious tail-band, wing versus tail projection, white tips only on inner remiges and bill colour+shape. To my knowledge there have only been two confirmed records of the LBBG("-group") in South America - one in Venezuela and one from Ecuador. In addition to these there has been a single unconfirmed record from Venezuela and a highly dubious record from Argentina. To my knowledge the Argentian record has not been accepted for obvious reasons. Wing versus tail projection, leg colour (obs: careful!), larger size and "heavier" jizz are all useful for separating Kelp from LBBG. Gull's could perhaps be the only group where ID's generally are easier in South America than in the northern Hemisphere!

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

Perhaps a majority of the "Kelp" gulls found here in the United States might be hybrids with the Herring Gull. Some believe they may be F1 or F2 birds, referring to whether the parent birds were Kelp X Herring (F1) or [Kelp X Herring] X Herring (F2). I assume this is not the case for South American Kelp as Herring Gulls are a more northerly occuring gull. Is this correct?

Yes, it certainly wouldn't astonish me if at least a large percentage of the "Kelp's" recorded in the US actually are hybrids. Herring is indeed a north Hemisphere gull; only a small number of records from South America, very few being confirmed. It is probably a casual visitor to Colombia & Venezuela in the far north of the continent. In addition to this there has been a single confirmed record from Peru and likewise from Ecuador.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

The webmaster on our Audubon Society of Missouri (ASM) website has posted some additional photos of "our mystery gull".

Rasmus, and others, would you take a look at this website and offer your thoughts on what this "black-backed gull" is? In your estimations, is it a pure Kelp Gull, a hybrid Kelp X ? or perhaps something else. These photos were taken September 16, 2004, at Smithville Lake, Smithville, Missouri.

Here is the website:

http://mobirds.org/SmithvilleGULL.htm

I have to say it looks somewhat "Kelp Gull-ish" to me. The claims that "pure Kelp's" always have a mantle that is concolor with the black wing-tips is completely wrong. In pure Kelp's (in southern South America) the mantle often - even usually - appear somewhat paler (dark grey-brown) than the black wing-tips when seen in good light. Admittedly, even with this in mind, I must say that the individual on the photos indeed look very pale-mantled for a pure Kelp. However, this is a doubtful feature; judging a differences in hue on a photo...

Have a look at this Kelp from Chile; perched in good light:
http://www.avesdechile.cl/149.htm

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

The webmaster on our Audubon Society of Missouri (ASM) website has posted some additional photos of "our mystery gull".

Rasmus, and others, would you take a look at this website and offer your thoughts on what this "black-backed gull" is? In your estimations, is it a pure Kelp Gull, a hybrid Kelp X ? or perhaps something else. These photos were taken September 16, 2004, at Smithville Lake, Smithville, Missouri.

Here is the website:

http://mobirds.org/SmithvilleGULL.htm

Been looking at the "Smithville Gull" again. In Kelp P10 generally is shorter than P9. If looking at the close-up of the wing-tip of the "Smithville Gull" P10 appears to be equal if not very slightly longer than P9:
http://mobirds.org/images/CValentine/back_wingtip_2.jpg
Can't help wondering about LBBG?

Also, I wonder where the white tips of P9 & P8 are? They don't appear to be present, though this isn't a diagnostic feature - just an indication. Finally, the legs appear strikingly bright yellow (because of light?), probably too bright for pure Kelp:
http://mobirds.org/images/CValentine/legs_1.jpg

[Larry Lade]

Rasmus, looking at Sibley's guide, it looks to me like P10 is a little longer than P9 on both the Kelp and the Lesser Black-backed Gull. I realize that these are only drawings so that distinction possibly may not have been made. Do you know of a website which would show a "wing photo" of this shorter P10 on the Kelp Gull?

I would like to see it so I would know what exactly I was looking for should I see a Kelp Gull.

[Larry Lade]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Boegh

Been looking at the "Smithville Gull" again. In Kelp P10 generally is shorter than P9. If looking at the close-up of the wing-tip of the "Smithville Gull" P10 appears to be equal if not very slightly longer than P9:
http://mobirds.org/images/CValentine/back_wingtip_2.jpg

Also, I wonder where the white tips of P9 & P8 are? They don't appear to be present, though this isn't a diagnostic feature - just an indication. Finally, the legs appear strikingly bright yellow (because of light?), perhaps too bright for pure Kelp:
http://mobirds.org/images/CValentine/legs_1.jpg

Rasmus, never mind I went "googling" and found a photo here that shows what you were talking about.

http://www.user.fast.net/~becard/Kelp%20Gull-3.jpg

[Larry Lade]

Alejandro, I did not mean to "take over" your thread. The "Smithville" gull seemed to be relevant to your thread because there are those who think "our mystery gull" may be a Kelp.

Do you mind if we discuss here? Or do you want me to refer back to the thread which I began, Gull ID? Which is here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=23134

I apologize for my intrusion.

[BirdsPeru]

Larry,

I do not mind if we keep on discusing about the mistery gull on this thread. That's the reason this forums were intended for.

Alejandro

[Larry Lade]

A group of "top-notch" birders from Missouri and Kansas went to Smithville Lake this morning. Going out on the lake in a boat, they were able to view the "Smithville" gull at close range. The verdict handed down is that the bird is a LESSER BLACK-BACKED GULL.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by Larry Lade

The verdict handed down is that the bird is a LESSER BLACK-BACKED GULL.

Yes, I was thinking along those lines. My problem was the massive bill - it looks larger than any LBBG I have seen, though it could very well be within the variation.