[Stanbo]

A simple question for you all.

I have reached the age of "old age shake" (OAS) and am finding that I can't keep 8x binoculars as still as I used to. This happended with 10x some years ago.

I would appreciate comment from anyone who has tried to eliminate OAS and found benefit or not from a downward magnification move. Is it really worthwhile or are the minuses too significant?.

Just out of interest. Many years ago when I was in the army I was given a rifle to fight the enemy (bad move). The problem was that the end waved about so much that I couldn't hit the proverbial barn door and the result could be described as friendly fire, so maybe the OAS is a manifestation of that problem.

Stan

[typo]

Stan,

I don't think I ever had the steadiest hands, but I'm certainly more aware of it than I was. I did a little test with a resolution chart a while back and found I could see more detail at 7x than higher powers using lighter binoculars. However if I increased the weight to over a kilogram then I got the magnification advantage back again. I use lightweight 7x and a heavy 12x if the situation requires it.

Another point to make is that pupil dilation decreases with age. It varies with individuals but generally over 50s can't benefit from more than a 5mm exit pupil.

Of the alphas, my own preference would be the Nikon EDG 7x42, but it's a lot of money. The Opticron Imagic 7x42 is worth a look, as is their Classic 7x36 (my own choice). Zen Ray have a well reviewed 7x36 but it is not currently available in the UK. People either import from the US, or there is now a Polish retailer that serves the EU. Meopta and Viking do 6.5x32s which are worth considering as well.

Good luck,

David

[Star Farmer]

My hands were never steady, and actually improved with age.

Off hand, I see more with my 7x42. 7x is what I take hiking.

However, if I have time to find some form of support, my 10x42 gives a lot more details.

[14Goudvink]

Ergonomics. length of the bins and balance are also important. I find that the bins I can keep most steady are those that are short and are balanced to the front (ocular) end. I get the steadiest views when I can brace my hands that are holding the bins firmly against my face. In this manner my face and bins shake in unision instead of the bins shaking in one vibe and my face in another.

I compared 7x bins to 8x and 10x and the sevens were not necessarily the steadiest ones. Especially long sevens can be difficult because the weight of the objective lenses together with the long lever creates a greater pull at the objective end. So you have to hold them more to the objective end. This interferes with the possibility to brace your hands against your face.

I get the impression I can keep porro bins especially steady. I put my index fingers on top of the oculars and press my index fingers firmly against my eyebrows. In this way I can perhaps keep my Nikon 10x42 SE steadier than the Leica Ultravid 7x42 I used to have.

With my Leica Ultravid 8x32 I put one index finger between the focus wheel and my forehead to create a bridge that absorbs vibrations. This only works with bins that have one fingers width between forehead and focus wheel.

My recommendations:
Short bins (balance at the ocular end) like 8x32, 6,5x32
Short porro's like 7x35, 8x30, 8x32 and especially the Nikon 8x32 SE with it's wonderful ergonomics.

George

[Mrspurnell]

How do I start a post to help identify a bird?
many thanks

[typo]

Originally Posted by Mrspurnell

How do I start a post to help identify a bird?
many thanks

If you click the forum tab at the top there is a section near the top called 'Bird Identification Q&A'.

Or click here:
http://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=114

You then click the New Thread tab to start.

[FrankD]

A couple of thoughts after reading the above posts and the original one.

1) You don't necessarily have to be youth-challenged in order to see the benefits of 7x magnification. After some time I came to the realization that I don't have the steadiest hands either and I am only pushing 40. I certainly prefer 7x as I tend to get the most relaxed views from them. Is this just a function of the lower magnification and less image shake? Yes and no. I think it does help but I also think the larger exit pupil allows my eyes more room to roam around the image. I also think the increased depth of field provides a more relaxed and natural image for my eyes.

2) As was eluded to above I think the balance of the binocular plays just as much of a part to the steadiness of the image as the magnification. You could have an 8x or 10x model that provides a steady image because it is so well balanced and you could have a 7x that isn't well balanced and therefore does not provide a steady image. Ideally, a well-balanced 7x42 would be the perfect answer.

Also, have you thought about an image stabilized model like one of the Canons?

[ceasar]

They usually have longer eye relief than the others do. This makes eye placement easier for me as I like to prop them up against the bottom of my eyebrows for stability.

Bob

[Pinewood]

Originally Posted by Mrspurnell

How do I start a post to help identify a bird?
many thanks

Hello Mrs Purnell,

Near the top of the page are tabs. Click on "Forums," scroll down the page to "Birding." Click on "Bird Identification Q&A."
ABOVE the "Announcements" find "NEW THREAD" in a red field. If you are signed in click on that.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

[temmie]

7s all the way here: They are bright (always brighter than whatever Zeissovisionultravid). They have a wide FOV (so you never look through a tunnel, it feels like a natural view). They are quicker to focus (they almost need no focus).

But I know all kind of birders, and 7s, 8s, 10s or whatever they all use, it doesn't make a difference.

For a non-moving bird, a higher magnification is probably best. But non-moving birds are not so interesting. You could as well look at plants.

[Steve C]

I happen to like the increased depth of focus in a 7x. My 7x's are much less focus fiddly than higher magnifications.

You might look at a good monopod. Manfrotto makes several.

http://www.manfrotto.us/photo-monopo...FUhl7AodqlPQzw

This one is pretty good too.

http://www.stoneypoint.com/products/...r_monopod.html

[brocknroller]

Stan,

There are four recommended treatments for OAS listed in Brockman's Principles of Optical Medicine*:

1. Go lower in power to a 7x or 6.5x bin. You get better depth perception and "ease of view," and if the optics are of high quality, you don't have to give up too much detail, though some tougher IDs could be a challenge. But if you shake a lot with 8x, you might not get the ID, anyway.

2. You mount your bins. If you're willing to mount them, you might want to try higher magnification. I've found that higher magnification helps compensate for deteriorating eyesight.

3. The modern technological "cure" for OAS is OASIS. Image stabilization. The downside is most IS bins have about 3mm exit pupils. If you're getting up there in age, that's not too bad since generally the older you get, the smaller your entrance pupils will open.

4. Using the Brockman Holistic Method™ . This involves taking extra Vitamin B for your nerves, Vitamin D and Calcium for your bones, doing yogic breathing to calm your muscles, choosing a mantra and repeating it as you bird (mine is "Mothra"), learning Tai Chi and practicing it daily one hour before birding, and finally, staying away from all stimulants including watching the nightly news (except for the uplifting segment at the end).

If you have any other questions, I'm available for a private consult.

* available soon in Bantam paperback edition

[stereotruckdriver]

I agree with all the above. My 7x42 slc's with all the new modern coatings give me ultra sharp natural views. Wouldn't trade them for anything! From close in to midrange they give me as much detail as an 8x. Beyond that 10x would help with added detail but, then i would rather use a scope. I'm pushing 50 myself and have been dealing with essential and parkinsonian tremors. I've recently had 2 dbs surgeries and while the stimulation has helped my findings haven't changed in binocular magnification. Bryce...

[Sancho]

I'm fifty in a couple of months, and so far haven't noticed any deterioration in ability to hand-hold binoculars. (Touch wood, at least I would if the table would stop moving...)
However, I find open-bridge 8x32 the steadiest binos in my hands, bar none. The models I've tried are Swaro EL, Opticron Verano, and the superb value Sightron SII. I just find the two-hand grip round the barrels the best for a rock-steady (non-IS) view.
When the tremors finally do kick in, I'll go for Canon IS, if the nursing-home let me. I had their 10x30 IS, which is a lovely little bino, but unfortunately their 8x25 is a nasty little beast for a whole lot of reasons.
I'd recommend you have a look at an open-bridge 8x32, and the Canon IS 10x30, just to see if they help. Best Wishes!

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by stereotruckdriver

I agree with all the above. My 7x42 slc's with all the new modern coatings give me ultra sharp natural views. Wouldn't trade them for anything! From close in to midrange they give me as much detail as an 8x. Beyond that 10x would help with added detail but, then i would rather use a scope. I'm pushing 50 myself and have been dealing with essential and parkinsonian tremors. I've recently had 2 dbs surgeries and while the stimulation has helped my findings haven't changed in binocular magnification. Bryce...

Bryce,

Well, that really took the wind out of the sails of my spoof on Harrison's Guide to Internal Medicine.

Sorry to hear about the Parkinson's. I don't know if it was due to Michael J. Fox's diagnosis, but for some reason, I'm hearing about more and more cases of people at a younger age getting the disease than had been normally been associated with it.

I have "essential tremor," so I know what that is. My mother and grandmother both had it, my doctor said it is a familial trait.

Glad to hear the deep brain stimulation has helped.

Even for people who can hold 8x steady, the 7x42 is still a nice configuration for the better depth perception,"ease of view," and larger exit pupil.

Brock

[stereotruckdriver]

Hey it's the hand i was dealt at least we know what's going on! No opologies needed i have lot's of kick left. Can't let things hold you down! Now let's get back to 7x42's!!! : )

[stereotruckdriver]

Originally Posted by Sancho

I'm fifty in a couple of months, and so far haven't noticed any deterioration in ability to hand-hold binoculars. (Touch wood, at least I would if the table would stop moving...)
However, I find open-bridge 8x32 the steadiest binos in my hands, bar none. The models I've tried are Swaro EL, Opticron Verano, and the superb value Sightron SII. I just find the two-hand grip round the barrels the best for a rock-steady (non-IS) view.
When the tremors finally do kick in, I'll go for Canon IS, if the nursing-home let me. I had their 10x30 IS, which is a lovely little bino, but unfortunately their 8x25 is a nasty little beast for a whole lot of reasons.
I'd recommend you have a look at an open-bridge 8x32, and the Canon IS 10x30, just to see if they help. Best Wishes!

Hey Sancho i'll be 50 in June happy birthday! I agree on 8x32 open bridge binoculars as far as ergo's but, i have yet to be able to discern any difference as far as detail, resolution in normal birding situations. That said i'm really struggling between getting a new scope and swaro el 8x32! Old or sv! Ergonomically the best bino i've had my hands on. Bryce...

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by stereotruckdriver

Hey Sancho i'll be 50 in June happy birthday!

And the same to you, Bryce! (My Big Day is June 28th. I laugh derisively in the face of my second half-century, Ha-Haaaa!)

[newfie ghost]

"power of seven"- steady view, bright, lots of eye relief, large field of view and big depth of field. Not only will you hold it steadier than an 8 power but you won't have to focus it as much. Size of the image is fine. I am very happy with my 7 power.

[James Bean]

There is something inherently 'comfortable' about a 7x42: easy on the eyes, wide view, good depth, accommodating focus. How many knowledgeable people on Bird Forum have said, for example, that perhaps the finest all-round classic binocular is the legendary Zeiss 7x42 BGATP; that maybe the most elegant binocular of all time is the Leica 7x42 Trinovid; quite apart from other 7x42s from famous names like Bausch & Lomb and more recently Nikon's impressive EDG. 7x42s may not nowadays be as popular as they were twenty or more years ago, but arguably that's not the fault of the binocular specification so much as the younger generations' lack of discernment, both in the sense of exercising judgement and being able to see clearly (literally). Bigger is not always better in image appreciation terms, and sometimes a slightly smaller but brighter and clearer view is preferable. I suppose your view on this (again, literally) will depend on your age. During WW2 armies tended to use 6x30, and navies 7x50. After the War the most popular sizes were 8x30 and 10x50 (and most of them came from Zeiss Jena). If I could have only one factotum binocular, it would be difficult to deny the 7x42's appeal.

[Pinewood]

Hello all,

I have written that the Zeiss 7x42 BGAT has one of the best design compromises in the industry: bright, wide field, low chromatic aberration and good ergonomics if you learn to hold it properly. Yes, one sees more detail with an eight power, but its stable, comfortable and relaxed view has been appreciated by many.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

[follownoone]

Interesting thread. I have a pair of 8x42 roofs and a pair of big 7x50 porros.
The roofs are great but I am finding that most times other than hiking, I use the 7x50. All of the reasons above are why. I came to the same conclusions on my own. Friendly eye placement, depth of field, and sharp images in the center.

I am going this weekend to try some 7x42 roofs to see if they can compare.

[BillN]

I am relatively new to "birding" and I am an OAP, (over 65 in the UK)

I have 7 x 42
8 x 35
and 10 x 40

all Leitz, (NOT Leica), Trinovids

All three pairs are great but I find that I use the 7 x 42's 80% of the time and they are certainly the pair the I grab for my "morning walk"

[jaymoynihan]

Originally Posted by Pinewood

...the Zeiss 7x42 BGAT

THE 7x42 binocular.

[cdeviney]

Just two suggestions:

1. Nikon Action Extreme 7x35

2 Monopod and L-adapter, such as:
https://www.garrettoptical.com/product-p/series2000.htm