[captaincarot]

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/313396-o...ey-persecution


more raptor persecution in the dark peak

[Mal Taylor]

Originally Posted by captaincarot

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/313396-o...ey-persecution


more raptor persecution in the dark peak

Must be one of the worst places in England for raptor persecution. The shooting fraternity have a lot to answer for in robbing us all of our natural heritage.

[acipiter]

Another case of money speaking louder then words, its about time something was done about these stupid people, I have some ideas, as I am sure you all have.

[Firecrest5]

how do you know it was at the hands of the shooting fraternity?

Originally Posted by Mal Taylor

The shooting fraternity have a lot to answer for in robbing us all of our natural heritage.

[Farnboro John]

The ordinary vandal fraternity (a) doesnt take long walks in the countryside and (b) so far as BOP nests high in trees are concerned, couldn't find its a**e with both hands.

Ergo, you require a vandal with specialised knowledge and a disregard for the effort involved = gamekeeper or employer of such.

You know my methods Watson, apply them.

John

[Firecrest5]

Ah so, Mr Undercover Eleohant, you have clearly deduced that pigeon-fanciers and other anti-bop fraternities must be wheelchair-bound.

I clearly need to go to detective school, otherwise I may simply take the blind, swinging assumption route rather than the hard evidence route like wot you have done.

ps not saying it wasnt at the hands of the shooting fraternity, just dint understand how you or others can categorically state it is one fraternity when there is more than one option??

I also didnt say it was vandals, cant imagine anyone would think that.

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

The ordinary vandal fraternity (a) doesnt take long walks in the countryside and (b) so far as BOP nests high in trees are concerned, couldn't find its a**e with both hands.

Ergo, you require a vandal with specialised knowledge and a disregard for the effort involved = gamekeeper or employer of such.

You know my methods Watson, apply them.

John

[Mike Price]

Originally Posted by Firecrest5

how do you know it was at the hands of the shooting fraternity?

Google Reg Cripps and Glen Brown plus gamekeeper, there is a long history of problems in this area due to its links with driven Red Grouse shooting, also see http://www.sbsg.org/sightings/Peak_Nestwatch_2010.pdf

The thing about pigeons fanciers is that they can't walk around the countryside with firearms very easily, infact I think that rules out a large proportion of the population, granted none of this proves anything but it certainly focus's the area of the investigation in my opinion

[Mal Taylor]

Originally Posted by Firecrest5

how do you know it was at the hands of the shooting fraternity?

Could have been the WI i suppose!

[Robin Edwards]

Originally Posted by Firecrest5

how do you know it was at the hands of the shooting fraternity?

Firecrest - so what are you proposing instead happened?

Look at the history of events in this area and the probability of what profession lies at the root of persecution towards BoP and the most likely cause of why this nest has been destroyed.

Those in denial may well want to defend those that support the sport shooting in the uplands and I suppose I should never say never and this nest just may have been blown down in a freak wind

And before someone points out the obvious - not all Gamekeepers and Land Managers operate outside of the law. In this area of the Peak District however, I would like someone to suggest what is happeneing and who is to blame if you think it's not the Gamekeepers and Land Owners/Managers who are breaking the law.

[Firecrest5]

All I am saying is that there is no PROOF to back up an earlier statement of who is responsible.

I have read 3 reports on the incident and the all state that the eggs were found smashed on the ground. They were not found on keepered ground either but on Water Authority Land.

There are actually natural reasons why eggs sometimes end up falling out of the nest too but this is obviously ruled out automatically due to the history of persecution in the area.

The incident is obviously highly suspicious, but nobody has PROOF as to what happened so this thread is simply full of hot air!

No mention of them being shot out by firearm.

Nobody is in denial or supporting any fraternity from the posts on this thread, but a few appear once again to be incapable of reasoned debate or unprejudiced thought

[Firecrest5]

Or Secret Squirrel....

Originally Posted by Mal Taylor

Could have been the WI i suppose!

[Firecrest5]

Ps 2 of the goshawk nests I monitor were blown out in last May's winds, one of which had half the whole larch wood come down. Big strong keepers around these parts to have managed to push all those trees over huh? :lol:

[Robin Edwards]

Originally Posted by Firecrest5

The incident is obviously highly suspicious, but nobody has PROOF as to what happened so this thread is simply full of hot air!

So Unproven events are not Hot Air - unless of course you see this as a forum along with the original RSPB News site, where only legally proven events should be reported? And given history and probability it is only natural that those who care about the existance of such birds will form opinions of what might really be going on.

If you look at the gaping hole that exists in the Peak District where BoP should rightfully be, it suggests that something unlawful is happening which I don't believe is Hot Air at all.

Or maybe you have the answers Firecrest and you see the BoP situation in the Dark Peak as hype and over-reaction?

[Firecrest5]

Im all for reporting....FACTs.

You use the word SUGGESt, praise be, we may be getting the idea.

Your final paragraph is a complete misrepresentation of my opinion, as you would know if you had actually read what I have posted on this thread.

Originally Posted by Robin Edwards

where only legally proven events should be reported?

If you look at the gaping hole that exists in the Peak District where BoP should rightfully be, it suggests that something unlawful is happening which I don't believe is Hot Air at all.

Or maybe you have the answers Firecrest and you see the BoP situation in the Dark Peak as hype and over-reaction?

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by Firecrest5

All I am saying is that there is no PROOF to back up an earlier statement of who is responsible.

I have read 3 reports on the incident and the all state that the eggs were found smashed on the ground. They were not found on keepered ground either but on Water Authority Land.

Makes no difference, I know some of the MOD guys that protect BOP up around Catterick and they have found landowners of nearby shooting estates on MOD land in 4X4s with firearms in the back of the car. One of them described the environment up there as being "like Dodge City".

Compare and contrast the likely fate of a target shooter caught somewhere he shouldn't be with a firearm - loss of firearms certificate. IMHO not only does the shooting fraternity believe the laws are for us lowly oiks not them, but there is more than enough corruption in the system to prevent them being treated like anyone else.

Maybe specific incidents should await investigation but again IMHO, all the shooting fraternity should be tarred with the same brush until the good ones force the others into compliance. They don't at present use sufficiently strong language to distance themselves from what should be utter pariahs.

John

[Parabuteos lad]

To blame the shooting fraternity is utterly ridiculous. Granted game keepers are sometimes to blame, but not all the time. Bird watching is a bi-product of my sport/hobby, Falconry & Hunting and it boils my blood when people assume any sort of raptor crime is gamekeeper related, I'd say there's a chance of this being a pigeon fancier, natural causes or any other reasons. I think, if you are to say this is down to the shooting fraternity, then all egg collectors are birdwatchers!
Sorry to all this offends but its how I feel when idiots put down my hobby, as im sure you's feel the same when people put down bird watching...

[Irish Kite]

Originally Posted by Parabuteos lad

To blame the shooting fraternity is utterly ridiculous. Granted game keepers are sometimes to blame, but not all the time. Bird watching is a bi-product of my sport/hobby, Falconry & Hunting and it boils my blood when people assume any sort of raptor crime is gamekeeper related, I'd say there's a chance of this being a pigeon fancier, natural causes or any other reasons. I think, if you are to say this is down to the shooting fraternity, then all egg collectors are birdwatchers!
Sorry to all this offends but its how I feel when idiots put down my hobby, as im sure you's feel the same when people put down bird watching...

I certainly wouldn't blame the ordinary joe soap hunter who shoots a few pheasant, duck or enjoys a bit of foxing or helping the farmer out with pigeons etc.. Its pretty obvious that the main problem lies with a number of Lord Muck types behind the vast shooting estates in Northern Britain. The vast majority of incidents involving illegal persecution of raptors occur in or near these holdings. Sadly these powerfull, wealthy individuals appear to have little to fear from the law and even when their gamekeepers are caught red-handed with illegal pesticides/poisons and/or dead raptors they would laughably have us believe they know nothing about it. It is no accident that the raptors species with the poorest conservation status in England etc. are the likes of Hen Harriers and Golden Eagles who's natural habitats overlap with these shooting estates.

The tragedy for the sport is that these handfull of hurrah henries have done massive damage to the reputation of all types of hunting by their continued arrogant distain for basic wildlife protections. It is up now to the sport itself to bring these rotten apple to book and I would like to see the likes of the BASC taking a much firmer line in this area.

[Robin Edwards]

Originally Posted by Parabuteos lad

it boils my blood when people assume any sort of raptor crime is gamekeeper related, I'd say there's a chance of this being a pigeon fancier, natural causes or any other reasons.

I respect that currently there cannot be 100% certaintly but this is a forum, not a court of law. Also, look at the facts of what is known in the area in question and it's difficult not to draw conclusions. If you're a keen sports shooter and not happy with being associated with this type of behaviour, then I sympathise and suggest you make your strength of feeling known within the shooting community.

Yes, there is a chance that some pigeon fanciers tracked down a Goshawk nest even though the Pigeon Fanciers generally recognise that their birds would be highly unlucky to be taken by birds that feed in forests.

And yes, there might be a slim chance that a freak wind hit this particular nest days before the eggs hatched.

And what other reasons do you suggest, exactly ? And be honest, if you were a betting man where would your money be placed?

[Parabuteos lad]

I agree with what your saying, but i HIGHLY doubt a keeper would kill a hen harrier or golden eagle as neither will regularly predate upon pheasent, grouse or other game. i fully understand when the carcasses or traps or whatever are found on or near estates. it just gets to me when something is posted with no reference to any estates or keepers and theres the idiot who always sends the blame onto the 'shooting fraternity'. it annoys me even more when someone claims a keeper has shot sparrowhawk or kestrel or some other bird that keepers have no reason what so ever to shoot.

[Parabuteos lad]

i would like to make the point that i am not a shooter, just for the record, i prefer to give quarry a chance, that's why im a falconer. merely standing up for a fellow mans sport. Last week there was another (unpublicised) nest destroyed in Wales. on the tree there was marks suggesting tree climbing gear had been used, the eggs where smashed on the floor. who would you suggest done this? the 'Shooting fraternity' would just put a few shots in it?
i know of this other nest from a very reliable BIRDWATCHER who watched them displaying and then folowed them and found a nest. he was monitoring them and then this happened...

[Firecrest5]

To be honest John, ot is a tough issue to try to resolve. To tar a fraternity with the same brush as the few bad eggs will never be productive, I would imagine some would take the stand that if they were getting blamed for something anyway then they may as well do it.

I am a falconer, I breed goshawks, I monitor them (and various owl species) in the wild, and surprising to some on here I do not shoot! I watch the persecution issue and see both sides, and I see an unwillingness to have meaningful discussion to try to break the cycle from both sides - and it frustrates the hell out of me as birds go on being killed. The hen harrier is the classic example, clearly persecuted on active grouse moors to dangerously low numbers, whilst the protectionists do little but condemn all keepers and the landowners generally pay scant regard to the current, weak laws.

It is very sad to stand by and watch two sides act like they are still in the playground whilst the raptors suffer..

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

Maybe specific incidents should await investigation but again IMHO, all the shooting fraternity should be tarred with the same brush until the good ones force the others into compliance. They don't at present use sufficiently strong language to distance themselves from what should be utter pariahs.

John

[Jaff]

Well at least we can safely say it wasn't egg collectors.

[John S. Armitage]

Originally Posted by captaincarot

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/313396-o...ey-persecution


more raptor persecution in the dark peak

Hiya. Sadly little does change. In the 80's and into the 90's RSPB employed contract staff in the Peak to combat the intensive efforts aimed at Goshawk persecution and egg collecting. There were some notable successes and, thankfully, the species has hung on and begun to breed elsewhere more widely.
Sadly the species under the hammer that does face "extinction" as a breeding species in England is Hen Harrier. See the features I've put on my Blog on the 1st and 8th May, 2012.
( http://www.birdingodyssey.blogspot.com/ )
This is a problem that needs airing far more widely than at present and by everyone!!
John.

[Robin Edwards]

Originally Posted by Parabuteos lad

I agree with what your saying, but i HIGHLY doubt a keeper would kill a hen harrier or golden eagle as neither will regularly predate upon pheasent, grouse or other game. i fully understand when the carcasses or traps or whatever are found on or near estates. it just gets to me when something is posted with no reference to any estates or keepers and theres the idiot who always sends the blame onto the 'shooting fraternity'. it annoys me even more when someone claims a keeper has shot sparrowhawk or kestrel or some other bird that keepers have no reason what so ever to shoot.

Parabuteous - doubting that keepings would do such things sounds like denial in my opinion - just look at the evidence - the RSPB crime reports might be a good place to start.

In upland Britain, Gamekeeping and eatate management is carried out to protect the interests of sport excercised with guns.

No one is suggesting that all keepers are villans - but in the Peak District (and elsewhere), we already know otherwise don't we?

[Robin Edwards]

Originally Posted by John S. Armitage

Hiya. Sadly little does change. In the 80's and into the 90's RSPB employed contract staff in the Peak to combat the intensive efforts aimed at Goshawk persecution and egg collecting. There were some notable successes and, thankfully, the species has hung on and begun to breed elsewhere more widely.
Sadly the species under the hammer that does face "extinction" as a breeding species in England is Hen Harrier. See the features I've put on my Blog on the 1st and 8th May, 2012.
( http://www.birdingodyssey.blogspot.com/ )
This is a problem that needs airing far more widely than at present and by everyone!!
John.

I totally agree John.

It's frustrating to see that real wildlife stories rarely hits our national news whilst programmes like Springwatch do little to portray the threats to nature and prefer to play to those that like fuffy bunnies. The current "Live" BBC offering is a good example of this.

The only people that can change things are those that care about birds and wildlife - and that's us through lobbying and making a nusiance of ourselves in sufficient numbers that opinion might just change over time. I find these stories depressing but we should keep focused and remain positive that a difference can be made if enough people care enough about birds being lost to future generations.