[Rich N]

Is there a noticable difference in the image quality between a 2 or 3 year old Leica APO 77 Angled and a new Zeiss 85 FL Angled? Assuming both are are using their respective 20x60 zoom eyepeices.

Sometimes the Leica zoom ring is stiff enough to start to unscrew the eyepiece form the scope body.
Do the new Zeiss zoom eyepieces have this problem in the Zeiss 85 FL?

I have a Leica APO 77 Angled Televid. It gives very nice images.

Would be worth getting a Zeiss 85 FL Angled?
A brighter (maybe even sharper) image at 60x?
Is the Zeiss as rugged?

Thanks,
Rich

[Rich N]

Sorry, I thought I was putting the above in the scope section of the forum.

Mods, please feel free to move it to that section. Or if you would perfer, delete this thread and I will start it again in the right place.

Rich

[Curtis Croulet]

Don't know about the Zeiss, but Swarovski eyepieces use a bayonet coupling.

[Bill Atwood]

The new Swaros also have a locking pin. Never had a loosness problem with the older Swaro either.

[Rich N]

Leica also uses a bayonet coupling but no locking pin that must be pushed before removing the eyepiece.

Rich

[pduxon]

fwiw the current Leica zoom is lockable.

Can't comment on image quality as I've never viewed the two side by side - I was impressed with both when I looked through them. The Zeiss is certainly lighter which is a big plus.

[iporali]

Originally Posted by Rich N

Would be worth getting a Zeiss 85 FL Angled?

Have you read the Alula tests (http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm)? They discuss the issue very thoroughly. The Leica unit they tested was perhaps not as good as it could have been.

Ilkka

[Rich N]

Originally Posted by pduxon

fwiw the current Leica zoom is lockable.

Can't comment on image quality as I've never viewed the two side by side - I was impressed with both when I looked through them. The Zeiss is certainly lighter which is a big plus.

How do you lock the Leica zoom?

Sorry, I see you said "current" models.

Rich

[pduxon]

Originally Posted by Rich N

How do you lock the Leica zoom?

Rich

There's a button on the side to lock/unlock it.

[Rich N]

Originally Posted by iporali

Have you read the Alula tests (http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm)? They discuss the issue very thoroughly. The Leica unit they tested was perhaps not as good as it could have been.

Ilkka

Hi Ilkka,

Thanks very much for suggesting the Alula report. I had not read it. It is interesting and has me thinking of getting the Zeiss.

The Alula report mentioned a little softness at high mag with the Leica. There seems to be some difference in image quality from unit to unit. I have both an angled Leica APO 77 and a straight model Leica APO 77. The straight one is about 6 months newer. The angled one is slightly sharper at full zoom than the straight one. The image in the angled Leica is very good. I have several Astro-Physics APO refractors for astronomy. I enjoy seeing an excellent image.

Thanks again,
Rich

[Rich N]

Originally Posted by pduxon

There's a button on the side to lock/unlock it.

Thanks. I guess my Leicas are not quite new enough to have that locking feature.

Rich

[Rich N]

I believe a store not too far away has Zeiss 85mm FL spotting scopes. I think I'll bring my Leica APO 77 along and compare the images.

Rich

[Leif]

Originally Posted by Rich N

Thanks. I guess my Leicas are not quite new enough to have that locking feature.

Rich

The latest Leica scopes have an indent near the eyepiece mounting. This is engaged by a pin on the latest zoom. The lock is effective but fiddly to unlock IMO.

I thought the Zeiss 85FL had an excellent image but slightly lower contrast than the Leica. Some benefits of the Zeiss are a zoom with a much wider FOV at 20x-30x though the edges are poor, a much lighter build and the ability to accept some but not all 1.25" astro. eyepieces. When I was choosing a scope the Zeiss was quite a bit more expensive than the Leica and had fewer dedicated eyepieces.

[henry link]

Originally Posted by Rich N

I believe a store not too far away has Zeiss 85mm FL spotting scopes. I think I'll bring my Leica APO 77 along and compare the images.

Rich

Have you star tested your Leica? QA in birding scopes is definately not up to Astro-Physics standards. Of 5 birding scopes I star tested this summer 3 had defects like astigmatism, miscollimation or pinching. I've come to consider any sample of a birding scope from any manufacturer guilty until proven innocent by star testing. For reference, a defect free Zeiss 85mm FL star tested almost as well as a Takahashi Sky-90, not close to text book perfect, but pretty well considering the focal ratio of the objective.

[salty]

i recently purchased the apo-televid 77, and compared it against the swarovski. i couldnt find any difference in performance! i went for the leica (1st choice anyway) because it looks fantastic and was a lot cheaper, but had the same performance. the lockable eye-piece is simple and effective, no problems with mine!

[Curtis Croulet]

My Swarovski ATS 65 HD has some spherical aberration (sharp rings on one side of focus, mushy rings on the other side), but it shows no astigmatism or pinching. On-axis star images are perfectly round. I sent a message about the star test to Swarovski North America, just to get a reaction. Their reply was that they found my test interesting and that few of their customers are informed enough to do such a test. They didn't offer to do anything about it, nor would I have expected them to. I don't see much relevance of a star test for this type of scope.

[henry link]

Originally Posted by Curtis Croulet

My Swarovski ATS 65 HD has some spherical aberration (sharp rings on one side of focus, mushy rings on the other side), but it shows no astigmatism or pinching. On-axis star images are perfectly round. I sent a message about the star test to Swarovski North America, just to get a reaction. Their reply was that they found my test interesting and that few of their customers are informed enough to do such a test. They didn't offer to do anything about it, nor would I have expected them to. I don't see much relevance of a star test for this type of scope.

Curtis,

The best star test I saw among the scopes I tested was in a Swaro ATS 65 HD which tested about like what you described for yours. Low focal ratio scopes will always have some spherical aberration. The 65HD has less than most birding scopes because the objective is f/7.1, while most of it's competition is below f/6. Where star testing is most relevant to birding scopes is for identifying individual sample defects (like astigmatism, pinching and miscollimation). Those things are not normal design limitations like chromatic and spherical aberrations. They are manufacturing defects that shouldn't be present in any well made scope.

[Curtis Croulet]

I agree, Henry. Spherical aberration is a non-issue for me, but collimation and astigmatism certainly are.

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Rich N

Is there a noticable difference in the image quality between a 2 or 3 year old Leica APO 77 Angled and a new Zeiss 85 FL Angled? Assuming both are are using their respective 20x60 zoom eyepeices.

Sometimes the Leica zoom ring is stiff enough to start to unscrew the eyepiece form the scope body.
Do the new Zeiss zoom eyepieces have this problem in the Zeiss 85 FL?

I have a Leica APO 77 Angled Televid. It gives very nice images.

Would be worth getting a Zeiss 85 FL Angled?
A brighter (maybe even sharper) image at 60x?
Is the Zeiss as rugged?

Thanks,
Rich

I have the Zeiss and it is undoubtedly a very fine scope; but so is the Leica. The zoom eyepieces of each make are equally fine. I prefer the Zeiss because it gives such a wide field of view; that said, the Leica does provide a roughly equivalent quality image in all other respects. It is true that the Zeiss zoom has a less sharp outer edge at 20x, but that edge can't even be seen in other scopes of course.

I can't think why you would want to change your scope as you will lose so much of its value against a new Zeiss. What you would gain with the Zeiss is a more modern design that is somewhat lighter, shorter and with a wider field of view; the Zeiss image is also rather brighter than the Leica, but not to any worthwhile degree and of no real practical benefit. In some lights, I think the Leica gives an appearance of greater contrast, too, but this is not always obvious at all. The Zeiss does have a bayonet mount that clicks into place; it would, I presume, be possible to loosen it if you twist too hard on the zoom ring - but it's not something I have done.

The Zeiss is certainly a very rugged scope in every respect and its focusing controls are identical to the Leica. I have the green colour version but always keep it in its protective outer case.

[Rich N]

Thanks very much for all your replies.

I look for a difference in contrast between the Leica and Zeiss scopes. It looks as if Leicas are a little more expensive than Zeiss in the US.

I performed a star test on my angled Leica with the zoom eyepiece. As I remember the star test looked fine. I'll try it again. Back in Feb of 2002 I wrote a report comparing my TV-76, Takahashi FS-78 and Leica APO 77. I think I may have sent it to Cloudy Nights. I posted it to one or two refractor groups. I wasn't happy with my report when I re-read it earlier today. It was more subjective than It should have been. i should have taken more time to make a simple wood mounting plate to hold all three OTA on my rock solid AP 900 GTO mount. It would have made things easier.

Before I buy a Zeiss 85 FL T*, there would have to be a clearly better image in the Zeiss. There is no real need to buy a better scope but I'm a little nuts when it comes to fine refractors.

I fixed the problem of my Leica zoom eyepiece rotating in the mount when I turn the zoom ring. I used a few pieces of self adhesive Velcro.

I stared with a 1 inch by 1 inch piece of hook Velcro, to its ashesive side I attached a roughly 3/8 inch by 1 inch hook piece and next to it a roughly 5/8 inch by 1 inch loop piece. To the eyepiece I attached a 1 inch by 3/8 inch piece of self adhesive velcro to the grip ring of the eyepiece, starting just to the left (looking from the eye lens of the eyepiece) of the red index mark.

I stuck the 3/8 inch hook section of the Velcro square to the 3/8 inch loop piece on the eyepiece. The square piece can bend at 90 degrees, with the hook side attaching itself to the inside lining of the Leica green Cordura Every-Ready case. The Velcro tab gives enough added resistance to the turning of the eyepiece to keep it in place when I rotate the zoom ring.

Rich