[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

This has been an interesting thread and I have learned a lot. However there is one thing that I think is wrong and that is the suggestion that Mink cannot be eliminated nationally.

Given the claims that (a) they can be trapped "stupidly easily" and (b) can be called in easily rendering shooting a realistic option, perhaps there ought to be an opening for alliance between conservation interests and wildfowlers. Mink eliminatiion would restore the possibility of wildfowl breeding on waterways where they are robbed/killed at present - and besides, shooters' disposition to kill things could for once be an advantage!

It seems to me that the possible gains must be worth the attempt, at least. Does anyone have a Mink population estimate? Richie Moores suggests 37,000, I don't know where he got the figure. I'd be astonished if the human race, having in the past eliminated the Passenger Pigeon's billions from North America, couldn't see off 37,000 Mink from our small archipelago.

John

You have raised a few interesting points in this post, John and one of the biggest hurdles seems to be over which landowner has the responsibility for the controls. Putting aside the animal rights landowners who may deny access to their land, the problem we have here in Bury is that the mink are doing most damage on the canal owned by what used to be British Waterways. However, the animals appear to have a den on the nearby River Irwell and I imagine this would come under the responsibility of United Utilities. Unfortunately, the damage on the river is less easy to assess as water voles no longer exist in the area - I am not sure there is a direct cause and effect relationship but given the timelines, it is possible - and very few birds breed on the river other than sand martins and kingfishers, which favour a stretch that is likely to be outside the mink range. Incredibly, it is the local bird watchers that seem to be leading on the discussions albeit without any firm answers - yet! All in all, I see no reason why a national eradication could not take place but it will be interesting to see how this pans out when compared to the ruddy duck or grey squirrel issues.

I am not sure about the UK population of mink but it would depend on whether the estimate is based on colonies or territorial pairs. Charlie Hamilton-James found that mink on the river where he lives had adopted territories containing pairs and that seems to be the trend here around Manchester. However, when mink were first released by animal rights people and failed mink farmers, they tended to stick in larger colonies, probably as a consequence of not initially displaying wild-type behaviour. The colonies are particularly destructive as one can imagine but the bird life tends to adapt to having just a breeding pair in the area - not that this is a defence for the mink because they still play havoc with small mammal populations.

[saluki]

Originally Posted by Nightranger

I am not sure about the UK population of mink but it would depend on whether the estimate is based on colonies or territorial pairs. Charlie Hamilton-James found that mink on the river where he lives had adopted territories containing pairs and that seems to be the trend here around Manchester. However, when mink were first released by animal rights people and failed mink farmers, they tended to stick in larger colonies, probably as a consequence of not initially displaying wild-type behaviour. The colonies are particularly destructive as one can imagine but the bird life tends to adapt to having just a breeding pair in the area.

As far as I'm aware American Mink are, and always have been, solitary animals?

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by saluki

As far as I'm aware American Mink are, and always have been, solitary animals?

Indeed, but I am not sure why you quoted my post and failed to spot the caveat in the same paragraph. I repeat, a lot of evidence (photographic in BBC Wildlife amongst others) suggested that released animals were living colonially shortly after the time when a lot of animals were released. These days, there are fewer releases or escapes and the mink seem to have reverted to wild-type behaviour. It does not take a rocket-scientist to realise that colonial mink were more destructive than a territorial pair. Despite this, I am not making a case for leaving mink alone but it is important to get a handle on perspective given that a number of different landowners and therefore, different agendas will be required for cooperation in any possible eradication programme.

[saluki]

Originally Posted by Nightranger

Indeed, but I am not sure why you quoted my post and failed to spot the caveat in the same paragraph. I repeat, a lot of evidence (photographic in BBC Wildlife amongst others) suggested that released animals were living colonially shortly after the time when a lot of animals were released. These days, there are fewer releases or escapes and the mink seem to have reverted to wild-type behaviour. It does not take a rocket-scientist to realise that colonial mink were more destructive than a territorial pair. Despite this, I am not making a case for leaving mink alone but it is important to get a handle on perspective given that a number of different landowners and therefore, different agendas will be required for cooperation in any possible eradication programme.

You appeared to be speaking in the present tense in your initial post:

The colonies are particularly destructive as one can imagine but the bird life tends to adapt to having just a breeding pair in the area.

Didn't the last mink farm close in 2003? How long do these colonies last? Also, can you explain to me just how birds adapt to the presence of such a destructive alien species in such a short space of time? In my experience, when mink move into an area they usually cause havoc amongst nesting wildfowl, gulls, terns, etc. This only stops when the mink are removed.

It stands to reason that after a release the concentration of mink in the area would be high, whether this could be construed as colonial living is surely open to debate? I'm not doubting your word, it's just something I've not seen mentioned before, I presume you can point me towards some literature/a website to support this theory?

Cheers
Jonathan

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by saluki

Didn't the last mink farm close in 2003? How long do these colonies last? Also, can you explain to me just how birds adapt to the presence of such a destructive alien species in such a short space of time? In my experience, when mink move into an area they usually cause havoc amongst nesting wildfowl, gulls, terns, etc. This only stops when the mink are removed.

Jonathan, I repeat, I am not making a case for leaving mink alone but if you ever want to have a look around a mink habitat up here in Bury then I would be more than happy to show you around. The point being that we do not seem to have any depressed breeding successes as a result of having mink present and I know there is at least one pair because I photographed the dog two years ago. I also saw two similar sized individuals (either youngsters or females) close together earlier this year. I have seen individual incidents involving mink such as taking of coot young and alleged injuries to a well grown swan family that were reported (but not confirmed) to be caused by mink. Nevertheless, coots and moorhens continue to breed at the locality although a swan family was unsuccessful for natural reasons (the pen was inexperienced and failed to feed the cygnets) without suffering any attacks. The usual way that birds respond to high predation rates is by producing more young but I have not seen any evidence of this or of high mortality rates amongst coot families except when they chose to kill their own young. Comparing this with other species such as blue tits, the adaptation could begin within a few years. Please note: whilst it may be possible for birds to adapt, I am pretty sure it would be tough (if not impossible) for smaller mammals to do so. We undoubtedly still have mouse and vole populations along with frogs and toads but our water and bank vole populations are long gone. As I mentioned, I am not sure if there is a cause and effect relationship in this case.

I am not sure when the last farm closed but the ban was voted in in 2000 (2002 in Scotland although the last fur farm closed as early as 1983).

Originally Posted by saluki

It stands to reason that after a release the concentration of mink in the area would be high, whether this could be construed as colonial living is surely open to debate? I'm not doubting your word, it's just something I've not seen mentioned before, I presume you can point me towards some literature/a website to support this theory?

Cheers
Jonathan

It is not a theory, it is an observation. Jonathan with respect, why should I repeat points I already made? I pointed you to articles in BBC Wildlife and you have the same search capabilities on your Internet access as I do. I have another life that involves going out looking at wildlife not just talking about it and I really do not have the time to go chasing up information for someone who is capable of doing that for themselves. I come on here as an interested amateur these days and not as a professional Wildlife Adviser with access to the second largest nature library in the UK. I am sorry if you see that as an evasive answer but I have no wish to get into a prolonged debate about something we probably agree on anyway - this is not a pissing contest.

[Farnboro John]

All our Water Voles are long gone as well but along our highest density Mink corridor, the Basingstoke Canal (still the go-to place for a year-tick Mink) there remain big reservoirs of Bank Voles and both Wood and Yellow-necked Mice. These vary according to normal rodent boom-and-bust cycles but there have not been even local extinctions.

By contrast Waterfowl of all sorts disappeared as breeders from the canal line for years and are only recently returning. Mink numbers on the canal are down due to trapping, though this is not organised along the full length of the waterway so far as I can tell, and perhaps the influence of Otters which are now present though extremely elusive and perhaps not in great numbers.

In summer the canal Mink take great numbers of Signal Crayfish (though according to the fishermen they are but skimming the colossal crayfish population) which they catch with minimal effort, coming up with one pretty much on every dive. This easy source of food may also influence the attractiveness of nesting waterfowl as prey.

I suspect you guys are arguing about nothing - one size fits all is unlikely, and the significant factors probably vary between habitats more than we imagine.

John

[saluki]

Originally Posted by Nightranger

Jonathan, I repeat, I am not making a case for leaving mink alone but if you ever want to have a look around a mink habitat up here in Bury then I would be more than happy to show you around. The point being that we do not seem to have any depressed breeding successes as a result of having mink present and I know there is at least one pair because I photographed the dog two years ago. I also saw two similar sized individuals (either youngsters or females) close together earlier this year. I have seen individual incidents involving mink such as taking of coot young and alleged injuries to a well grown swan family that were reported (but not confirmed) to be caused by mink. Nevertheless, coots and moorhens continue to breed at the locality although a swan family was unsuccessful for natural reasons (the pen was inexperienced and failed to feed the cygnets) without suffering any attacks. The usual way that birds respond to high predation rates is by producing more young but I have not seen any evidence of this or of high mortality rates amongst coot families except when they chose to kill their own young. Comparing this with other species such as blue tits, the adaptation could begin within a few years. Please note: whilst it may be possible for birds to adapt, I am pretty sure it would be tough (if not impossible) for smaller mammals to do so. We undoubtedly still have mouse and vole populations along with frogs and toads but our water and bank vole populations are long gone. As I mentioned, I am not sure if there is a cause and effect relationship in this case.

I am not sure when the last farm closed but the ban was voted in in 2000 (2002 in Scotland although the last fur farm closed as early as 1983).



It is not a theory, it is an observation. Jonathan with respect, why should I repeat points I already made? I pointed you to articles in BBC Wildlife and you have the same search capabilities on your Internet access as I do. I have another life that involves going out looking at wildlife not just talking about it and I really do not have the time to go chasing up information for someone who is capable of doing that for themselves. I come on here as an interested amateur these days and not as a professional Wildlife Adviser with access to the second largest nature library in the UK. I am sorry if you see that as an evasive answer but I have no wish to get into a prolonged debate about something we probably agree on anyway - this is not a pissing contest.

I've not suggested your trying to make a case for leaving mink alone, I've suggested mink don't live in colonies. Everything I've ever read points to the fact that Mink are solitary creatures. I thought that you, as an ex-professional Wildlife Adviser who once had access to the second largest nature library in the UK, might have been able to point me towards something to support your observations. Alas no . . . you've shattered my illusions Ian

Cheers
Jonathan

[saluki]

Originally Posted by stonechat1

A nice little .17 HMR or .17 Hornet would be perfect for that kind of shooting.
Jm2c

I'm sure you're right Stonechat, I've heard some good things about .17's. They weren't a popular calibre in the UK when I was shooting however so I've never actually used one.

Cheers
Jonathan

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by saluki

I've not suggested your trying to make a case for leaving mink alone, I've suggested mink don't live in colonies. Everything I've ever read points to the fact that Mink are solitary creatures. I thought that you, as an ex-professional Wildlife Adviser who once had access to the second largest nature library in the UK, might have been able to point me towards something to support your observations. Alas no . . . you've shattered my illusions Ian

Cheers
Jonathan

No, I am just pointing out the fact that you are being argumental for the sake of it and I am also pointing out that I do not have access to any more information than you do. I have quoted my source but as I no longer have copies of BBC Wildlife from that period, I cannot give you dates of issues so basically, it is over to you to prove where your understanding of mink being solitary comes from (my understanding is that they are similar to otters - females having smaller territories than males, which overlap several females. Yet observations suggest there can be several females within a territory and this differs from otters [could this be colonial or are we talking semantics here?]). I have no doubt you are reading Wikipedia entries about mink behaviour that are readily accessible online but think about post-release information because this was much talked about at the time.

Anyway, your closing sentence wins the pissing contest...obviously!