[black52bird]

Following another thread back on this subject which I particiapated in back in August, I'm afraid Italy has been up to their tricks again over my side of Europe. Not Hungary and Romania this time, but Serbia.
The Independent on Thursday 23rd reported a container had been stopped on the Serbian/Croatian border and opened by chance to reveal "thousands of small birds apparently destined for restaurants in Italy".
Serbia, of course, is a fairly easy target at present with law and order in a poor way given the current political instability, and is a very rich country bird-wise (I know well, having lived there for 6 years in the past).

With sadness
David

[Kevin Mac]

What to say about that? It seems there is a huge market for some ambitious entrepreneur to raise some tasty passerines like Starlings or House Sparrows (introduced species in my area) for the local market.

[Alastair Rae]

I've eaten in many restaurants in Italy which had "uccelli" on the menu. My italian is not up to asking what species they might be so I never order it. I have a mental picture of larks and robins on a spit but it could just be domesticated small game birds.

[black52bird]

Originally Posted by Alastair Rae

I've eaten in many restaurants in Italy which had "uccelli" on the menu. My italian is not up to asking what species they might be so I never order it. I have a mental picture of larks and robins on a spit but it could just be domesticated small game birds.

After spending 14 years in northern Italy, particularly the areas of Lombardy around Brescia and Bergamo, and find that the uccellini (little birds) are generally any small species that can be caught. Finches, sparrows, robins in particular. The poor creatures are generally roast on a small spit, so that all the eater gets is a kind of frazzled crunch: about 5 or 6 of them. So not small game-birds, which always come labelled with their own name (quaglia for quail, pernice for partridge and so on) - being more valued and also more expensive.

In my years there I refused to let any guests at my table eat them while I was present....but that's a drop in the ocean. I always recommend that if people want to eat 'uccellini' they should buy the sweet of that name, which is popular in the area, particularly good in Bergamo cake-shops. It is a kind of cream and sponge gunk, topped by peach-coloured marzipan, and little chocolate birds on the top. Scrumptious for those with a sweet tooth and much better for the environment!!

The practice of hunting for small birds is so entrenched in the culture, however, that it is difficult to see what could be done. The Lega Anti-Caccia (anti-hunting league) does its very best, but with overwhelming odds against, I'm afraid. And of course, once people from Italy come into countries like Hungary, Romania and Serbia, their money is able to buy the silence, or even assistance. of locals. After the last huge haul was discovered in Hungary in 2003, local hoteliers who had been putting up hunters remonstrated with the government saying that anti-hunting legislation would put them out of business........ a conundrum.

Enough!!

David

[pauco]

It's a sad sick way to earn a living!!!
bert.

[cuckooroller]

Yes, it is unfortunately too true. There is something ingrained in the peculiar Italian pseudomachismo that has them wanting to shore up their flagging reputation as "Latin Lovers" at the expense of just about anything that has the breath of life in them. It is now hunting season here in the hills near Rome and I keep expecting to hear buckshot whistling by my head while I will not allow my dog out of the house as they are wont to shoot at just about anything that moves and even have the wherewithall (the hunters I mean) to come on just about anyones property by law!!! What A Crock!

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by black52bird

After the last huge haul was discovered in Hungary in 2003, local hoteliers who had been putting up hunters remonstrated with the government saying that anti-hunting legislation would put them out of business........ a conundrum.

Shades of the hunting lobby in Britain... I despair. I'm lost for words.

[Rhion]

Originally Posted by black52bird

... After the last huge haul was discovered in Hungary in 2003, local hoteliers who had been putting up hunters remonstrated with the government saying that anti-hunting legislation would put them out of business........ a conundrum.Enough!! David

Could be turned round the other way though, e.g.
"After the last huge haul was discovered in.... in ... , local hoteliers who had been putting up birdwatchers remonstrated with the government saying that pro-hunting legislation would put them out of business........ "

I'd suggest:
1. Ignore people who say you should never travel anywhere to watch birds because of global warming. I don't believe birdwatchers not travelling would mean even one fewer plane taking off.
2. If you stay at a hotel, eat at a restaurant etc. make quite sure the owner knows you are there for the birdwatching. If hunting is a problem in that country/area, mention it and suggest that it could put you off visiting again if something is not done.

[Michael Gilmore]

Hi,

Though living in France I do belong to 'LIPU' (Lega Italiana Protezione Uccelli): they are making inroads. My Italian being pretty rusty I subscribe to the UK branch, which is excellently run by David Lingard:
mail@lipu-uk.org
www.lipu-uk.org
About £15 p.a. sub. Regular translations of the society magazine arrives"ali" + e-mail up-dates "frammenti". Worth looking into, they are becoming quite a pain to the " sportsmen!! ".

[black52bird]

Originally Posted by Michael Gilmore

Hi,

Though living in France I do belong to 'LIPU' (Lega Italiana Protezione Uccelli): they are making inroads. My Italian being pretty rusty I subscribe to the UK branch, which is excellently run by David Lingard:
mail@lipu-uk.org
www.lipu-uk.org
About £15 p.a. sub. Regular translations of the society magazine arrives"ali" + e-mail up-dates "frammenti". Worth looking into, they are becoming quite a pain to the " sportsmen!! ".

You're right, Michael. LIPU is an excellent organisation. I was a member for most of my Italian years, and they have come on in leaps and bounds. LAC (the Anti-hunting League, in translation) is more active against the hunters, going out to disturb their dreadful actions (e.g. removing the horrendous 'archi' (bows) which are set so that when a passerine lands on them the 'fire' trapping the victims legs and leaving it dangling upside down in pain for hours........ such are the pleasures of the men from Bergamo and Brescia. And of course, they do get violent. Plenty of LAC people get bloodied.

One of the worst sites is the Straits of Messina, where there are kilometres of trenches and hideouts, and anything (especially Honey Buzzards) gets shot out of the sky...There, official government Guards have been attacked and seriously injured. I even believe one was killed a few years back.

Of course, the whole thing - as I said back in August - has the backing of the government protecting the gun lobby, local patronage, where the so-called hunters (these people are not real hunters!!) are best friends with the local policeman, the local judge and they all go hunting together!! Patronage is rife. And that is what is really difficult for legal organisations to combat. Some good work is being done in schools, but it is still the proverbial drop in the terribly big ocean.

Best

David

[Michael Gilmore]

Originally Posted by black52bird

You're right, Michael. LIPU is an excellent organisation. I was a member for most of my Italian years, and they have come on in leaps and bounds. LAC (the Anti-hunting League, in translation) is more active against the hunters, going out to disturb their dreadful actions (e.g. removing the horrendous 'archi' (bows) which are set so that when a passerine lands on them the 'fire' trapping the victims legs and leaving it dangling upside down in pain for hours........ such are the pleasures of the men from Bergamo and Brescia. And of course, they do get violent. Plenty of LAC people get bloodied.

One of the worst sites is the Straits of Messina, where there are kilometres of trenches and hideouts, and anything (especially Honey Buzzards) gets shot out of the sky...There, official government Guards have been attacked and seriously injured. I even believe one was killed a few years back.

Of course, the whole thing - as I said back in August - has the backing of the government protecting the gun lobby, local patronage, where the so-called hunters (these people are not real hunters!!) are best friends with the local policeman, the local judge and they all go hunting together!! Patronage is rife. And that is what is really difficult for legal organisations to combat. Some good work is being done in schools, but it is still the proverbial drop in the terribly big ocean.

Best

David

Hi David,

Many thanks for your comments: it does sound horrendous in the South; I'm glad that it's mostly Italian LIPU members who are risking their necks, simply because 'foreigners' could further support for these brave hunters.

Perseverence can help in the end, LPO 'won' back the Col d'Organbidexha (spelling I guess Basque is more difficult than Hungarian, you would know,though my bilingual grandmother maintained that the latter's grammar was far simpler than English!)from the hunters, and now the shooting hides are used for raptor counts: imprisonment faces any 'chasseur'... on the other hand Mayor Juppé of Bordeaux, and former premier, was filmed eating ortolans in an illegal restaurant there. Also a gendarme was shot and killed at 'La pointe de Médoc' inthe illegal turtle dove season: is a turtle dove worth 25 years, though I guess the former are free as opposed to paying for clays.

You started a good thread, I hope it goes on, I notice a lack of Maltese bird watchers on our website!

amicalement,

Mike

[rogerscoth]

Originally Posted by black52bird

The practice of hunting for small birds is so entrenched in the culture, ....................After the last huge haul was discovered in Hungary in 2003, local hoteliers who had been putting up hunters remonstrated with the government saying that anti-hunting legislation would put them out of business........ a conundrum.
Enough!!
David

Originally Posted by Bluetail

Shades of the hunting lobby in Britain... I despair. I'm lost for words.

Originally Posted by black52bird

......Of course, the whole thing - as I said back in August - has the backing of the government protecting the gun lobby, local patronage, where the so-called hunters (these people are not real hunters!!) are best friends with the local policeman, the local judge and they all go hunting together!! Patronage is rife. And that is what is really difficult for legal organisations to combat. Some good work is being done in schools, but it is still the proverbial drop in the terribly big ocean.
Best
David

During the current UK hunting debate(?), many of the hunting fraternity have openly declared that they are prepared to break the law and risk going to jail when the hunting ban comes into force. They believe that there is safety in numbers, and the police will not be able to effectively enforce the law. At many hunt meetings now, they are usually accompanied by a high number of police to allow them to go unhindered; will we see these numbers (of police) in future, and will they be able to cope with the violence that the hunt supporters are so obviously prepared to use (again!).

Roger

PS There is a new prison being built at Peterborough that is nearing completion.

[Kevin Mac]

Lawful hunting within the parameters set out by local agencies or governments is one thing, poaching is another matter completely. Lisenced hunters usually follow the rules, adhering to limits set out by biologists monitoring game populations. Poachers don't follow any rules, for numbers killed or for species allowed. I HATE POACHERS!
Fine them, confiscate their property, their gear, their freedom. AAAAGH!

[rogerscoth]

Originally Posted by black52bird

.............
The Independent on Thursday 23rd reported a container had been stopped on the Serbian/Croatian border and opened by chance to reveal "thousands of small birds apparently destined for restaurants in Italy". .............
David

Originally Posted by Kevin Mac

Lawful hunting within the parameters set out by local agencies or governments is one thing, poaching is another matter completely. Lisenced hunters usually follow the rules, adhering to limits set out by biologists monitoring game populations. Poachers don't follow any rules, for numbers killed or for species allowed. I HATE POACHERS!
Fine them, confiscate their property, their gear, their freedom. AAAAGH!

I agree, Kevin, that lawful hunting is one thing, but surely you cannot even believe that the discovery of "thousands of small birds apparently destined for restaurants in Italy" can be considered any different, or less despicable, than your view on poachers. This is not the first time that Italian hunters have been linked to large numbers of illegally shot birds.

Roger

[Kevin Mac]

No, those birds were poached, weren't they? We have strict laws in Canada regarding the killing of any birds that are not an "introduced species". It really is despicable.

[black52bird]

Of course, one of the main problems in this whole debate is how laws are enforced. Countries like Serbia & Montenegro do have laws which are quite clear about what can and cannot be hunted when and where. However, in the general state of breakdown which affects the country, there aren't people to go out and enforce these laws. (There weren't even when I lived there from 1980-1990 and things were relatively stable....) And, naturally, I suppose, as I said above, with unemployment high, money scarce, and law enforcement negligible, it is just too tempting for locals to either turn a blind eye to what's going on, or, for financial inducement, to actively assist. In other cases in other countries where the Italians have been doing this, local people who were employed as wardens, rangers and so on have been implicated. When you have a very low salary, or no salary, even a few Euros are tempting, if it means putting bread on your children's table. So governments and other agencies need to tackle those problems, as well as finding ways of educating our Italian friends that they can't go around plundering international heritage..... Hey ho!
Best
David

[simondix]

I was told that they ( Italian hunters)were banned from a number of islands in the Hebrides because they could not obey the rules and shot anything that moved. How true that is I do not know. Remember it takes a 'man' to kill a passerine.