[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by Steve

So what IYOHO is it Tim ?

Tim's field notes... soon to be framed and auctioned on Ebay are reputed to be labelled Curlew. Not Curlew spp, or SB Curlew.
But he will be too modest to say so!

[James Eaton]

A friend of mine who saw the curlew with me yesterday saw the Northumberland bird, he says that that bird was completely different to the minsmere bird, in terms of bill structure, size, breast patterning and behaviour. The two shouldn't be thrown in together. It certainly shouldn't be applied that if this bird isn't one then the Northumberland bird isn't a Slender-billed either. Two completley different case studies, we should be looking at the Northumberland bird as means to help identify potential Slender-billed Curlews as in the case of the Minsmere bird.

Oh, Tim, ok, one less pint but keep the pies coming along caterer boy!

[Ashley beolens]

Tim I wasn't meaning that you hadn't clearly stated your argument, simply highlighting what was in the last message and saying that is what is so annoying about some posts. So I appologise for not making that clearer.

These are some of the reasons I feel/felt (still not 100% sure) it was more akin to SBC than EC, and they are based on what I saw in the field not what is in the photos.

The bill looked very thin to me, after seeing the bird in direct comparison to EC it was shorted and slimmer (I have no practicle knowlegde of how this SBC bills should be I'm afraid). Also the angle of the curve was far more Whimbrel like than the accompanying curlew.

The head is sloped from the bill back, not rounded like every other EC I have seen (I thought that was meant to be one of the field characteristics, but it seems to have been ignored by everyone so far).

Personally I have never seen such a pale EC (not really proof I know).

Structure, as I mentioned earlier, there is a short video on BWPi of SBC and the bird I saw looked similar structurally and in Jizz, but as I have never seen a genuine 100% pucker SBC I could be wrong.

Clear white underwing coverts!!! I do not know of any EC that has shown these before, but I stand to be corrected.

Flank spotting, on the left of the bird, looked well within SBC appearance, but this is again based on what I have read or seen in pictures. Damn to be so young that morocan SBCs were long gone before I became old enough to see them!!!!!!

Expert oppinion!! I am a firm believer that if someone with such vast experience as Didier Vangerluwe, is sure of the ID, then there is a good reason to believe him (the reason I went!!)

Well I am done now, but I look forward to peoples constructive reasoning as to why I am wrong!!

[Mike Pennington]

[quote=James Eaton]A friend of mine who saw the curlew with me yesterday saw the Northumberland bird, he says that that bird was completely different to the minsmere bird, in terms of bill structure, size, breast patterning and behaviour. The two shouldn't be thrown in together. It certainly shouldn't be applied that if this bird isn't one then the Northumberland bird isn't a Slender-billed either. Two completley different case studies, we should be looking at the Northumberland bird as means to help identify potential Slender-billed Curlews as in the case of the Minsmere bird.
[quote]

Quite right.

What a shame that more people didn't go and see the Northumberland bird instead of not believing it, dissing it or getting carried away by the general apathy.

The Minsmere bird has been very instructive and the debale here interesting (despite the arrogant claim of one person that it was arguing in circles and they'd sorted it out straight away).

I haven't seen it, but was initially sceptical on early photos, extremely intrigued by later photos and discussions (thanks here to Marke for getting thinsg going and keeping the discussion flowing) and like I said earlier, if I was a lister I'd've gone to see it (but it's a hell of along way from Shetland).

If it is confirmed as an adult (I've only looked at the Holarctic wader guide which doesn't give the same tertial criteria for SBC as Eurasian Curlew) then the case for SBC does seem to collapse. But we all have a chance of ID ing one now if we do come across one in the future.

[Edward woodwood]

Originally Posted by Ashley beolens

Tim I wasn't meaning that you hadn't clearly stated your argument, simply highlighting what was in the last message and saying that is what is so annoying about some posts. So I appologise for not making that clearer.


Clear white underwing coverts!!! I do not know of any EC that has shown these before, but I stand to be corrected.

Hey, no worries Ash, my fault, i think i got my wires crossed

the unbarred axillaries and white underwing of a small proportion of EC is in the BB article on the Druridge bird and i think is also quoted in BWP (full version)

Jamesy Boy - watch your pies - no one knows what goes on in the kitchen!

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by Ashley beolens

Secondly BWP also states that when in first non-breeding tertials are usually the same as juv, NOT always. all these reasons coming out do NOT prove the bird is not a 1st winter female SBC. Please if it isn't one someone find me a reason that cannot be refuted.

Ashley, this sounds interesting, but have you left a word out? I don't have BWP so don't know what they mean by "first non-breeding". I would normally think of this as first summer. According to the BBRC, the replacement of the tertials during SBC's spring moult is "highly variable, so these are not helpful for aging". Clearly, the implication is that some first-summer birds will show juvenile-like tertials, others adult-like ones.

The BBRC summarised the written descriptions of the Druridge bird as follows: "The tertials were well described, with pale 'saw edges' (toothed), about seven or eight dark bars and showed some gingery tones near the dark centres" (though in fact the photographic evidence suggested that they had "less than seven or eight bars, perhaps only six"). So the tertials showed saw-toothed edges, not the ladder-like pattern of the Minsmere bird. Unless BWP is saying that SBCs can have adult-like tertials from the word go, then logic would suggest that all first-winter birds ought to show a pattern similar to the Druridge bird.

[Edward woodwood]

first winter Jason

[Steve]

So what IYOHO is it Tim ?

Managed to dodge this question so far then Tim

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

first winter Jason

Okey-doke. Thanks, Tim. That seems to imply that Ashley's right and that 1st-winter birds can show adult-like tertials.

[Edward woodwood]

but at this time of year?

[Ashley beolens]

Yeah first winter basically the plumage it should be going into. I think we are definately finding out that the info on SBC is far from comprehnsive, so I will wait for Didiers article and reassess then!

Does saw shaped (as in the Druridge bird) mean pointed as in triangular? if so then the picture by Mark Andrews http://www.surfbirds.com/cgi-bin/gal...llery=gallery9 (first on the page) shows this doesn't it?

Found this through surfbirds in an article by Birdlife international about the Minsmere bird.

Dr Mike Rands, Director and Chief Executive of BirdLife International
commented: "If the Minsmere bird proves to be a Slender-billed Curlew it
will be fantastic news - the fact it is a young bird means the species
has bred somewhere in the world this year.

CJW still sure its an Adult

[Ashley beolens]

I think the text is a bit open to be honest when talking about 1st winter (1st non breeding) it says "Like adult non-breeding, but juvenile flight-feathers, wing-coverts, and usually back, rump, tertials, and outer tail-feathers retained:" so usually retained?

Timings: "Post-juvenile. Partial. Probably starts soon after fledging; 1st non-breeding attained October–December." Pic up a book guys

[Edward woodwood]

so it's got an entire set of adult tertials then has it Ash?

[Bluetail]

Wish I'd seen the Druridge bird now. Just been looking at a photo of it with the aid of a magnifying glass and it does look as though at least two of the tertials were very similar in pattern to the Minsmere bird's - though the bars appear fewer and broader.

[Ashley beolens]

I didn't say that Tim! I am simply quoting the text which is ambiguos, but it could potentially have either and still be a first winter rather than it having to be an adult, as has been stated. I think it shows wedges rather than barring personally, but that is based on the photos not what I noted, as I completely failed to note the tertials at all when I saw the bird. If it is a moulting bird of either SBC or EC then we may find out the species conclusivly the longer it stays, who knows come May nest year it might be an Adult Slender-billed curlew! then what will the doubters say?? :)

I too now wish I had seen the Druridge bird, at least I would have something with compare then. I must admit I totally dismissed that bird, oh how I weep at night now.

[me1000]

Hello all,
thank you I.P. for your most imformative reply on hybrids,but they can and still occur or is Darwin wrong (ref post 262) .
It is of course a hybrid curlew/sandpiper x blue tit from N.A.S.A sent too undermine England as we know it
me

[Bluetail]

Personally I blame that nuclear power station just down the beach.

[me1000]

Warm water though Blue tail the bass love it, although been feeding um too my kids latley. Now they glow in DARK comes in andy at feeding time esp. now the dark nights are comming.
me

[jpoyner]

So lets assume that two vagrant SBC's have indeed recently turned up in the UK. Statistically this would indicate a fairly high probablity of a healthy population.....somewhere!
I really cannot believe that this would remain undocumented or undiscovered for so long to the ornithological world.
As it hasn't materialised then sadly I think it fairly unlikely that one exists, nor are these genuine SBCs, but more than likely a poorly documented but fairly common race or even hybrid of E Curlew. It's a shame but I'm not convinced.
(Unless that poo can tell us otherwise of course!)

JP

[postcardcv]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

My mate is now warden at Minsmere (and BBRC member too) - bet he's delighted with the prospects for all the work this will involve, plus having to marshall the crowds if it's generally considered a 'good' SBC. If you go, be generous please.

Just wondering what your friends take on the bird was - assuming it's who I think it is his opinion would be interesting to hear....

[Edward woodwood]

Hi Postie

It's Adam Rowlands - top bloke and fellow old punka too.

I wouldn't feel comfortable putting others' views in the public domain though although I heard on the grapevine one 'big' boy from north Norfolk wanted his petrol money back for the journey!

[postcardcv]

that's who I thought - quite understand why you wouldn't put someone elses thought out... good of you not to really.

I heard the same rumour about a claim for expenses... it's clearly an interesting bird what ever it ends up being (though I like many doubt they'll ever be a conclussion) shame people can't just be happy to see it for it's own sake. I guess for many the trip is about getting a tick - not seenig an individual. Must confess seeing the Bairds later was well worth the effort put in - at least I could be sure of what it was ;o)

[ground-roller]

Originally Posted by Ashley beolens

Tim, we are each entitled to our own oppinion, my only grievence with comments like the one you have just made is that saying it doesn't look right but then not backing it up is a pointless comment!! (no offence meant)

Perhaps the arguement has moved on from when you posted this (the problem of going out in the evening) but....

all bird species have an individual feel and, although this jizz approach to birding has perhaps gone out of fashion, it often holds true. We have all seen hundreds if not thousands (or more) or Eurasian Curlew so have a fairly good idea of the species' behaviour and feel. A different species, as Slender-billed Curlew unquestionably was, would look different based on a combination of both plumage characteristics and behavirour/posture. To a lot of people, including me and numerous others, when we saw this bird it (to quote you) "didn;t look right" for a species other than Eurasian Curlew (especially one which is considered extinct). Whilst this is not a scientifically valid reason for it not being slender-billed it is not a "pointless comment" but an educated opinion based on field experience

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by postcardcv

Must confess seeing the Bairds later was well worth the effort put in - at least I could be sure of what it was ;o)

Lucky you! That's more than could be said the day we were there. Lots of claims from the viewing platform, every single one a Little Stint! We never did see the Baird's, but weren't too fussed; we'd all seen one or two in the SW this year already.

Originally Posted by jpoyner

So lets assume that two vagrant SBC's have indeed recently turned up in the UK. Statistically this would indicate a fairly high probablity of a healthy population.....somewhere!

Not necessarily, unfortunately. The Birding World article on the Druridge bird contained an ingenious theory suggesting that a species used to congregating in large flocks at traditional migration stopover points might, as its numbers dwindled, become more prone to teaming up with congeners. As a result, the rarer it becomes, the more likely it is to turn up in odd places. Only a theory, but an interesting one.

[CJW]

Originally Posted by Mike Pennington

The Minsmere bird has been very instructive and the debate here interesting (despite the arrogant claim of one person that it was arguing in circles and they'd sorted it out straight away).

Ofcourse, this is aimed at the comment I made in something like post #293. Up until this stage the discussion had been very informative and one of the best threads for many a month. I'm sure many people gleaned a Hell of a lot of information from it.
No-one said they'd sorted it out straight away, in fact I seem to remember posting that:

Originally Posted by CJW

I've only said all along that I doubted this bird's (and it's NE predecessor's) credentials as a Slender-billed Curlew.
Wanting to be able to nicely pigeon-hole everything isn't something I do.
Accept it, we know what it isn't not what it is.

Arrogant?
If you can't see what is actually written down in front of you, how can you comment on the identification of a bird you haven't even seen?