[gradders52]

I meant male Hen or Montagu's ? (its a worry, I do it all the time, use wrong name, lost the plot yonks ago, don't appear to be able to edit heading).

I know the image is rubbish, croft in background doesn't help (chances of that?)

This was taken back in 2007 on a cliff road on Skye. I wasn't driving, just as well as we'd probably have gone over the edge – it has been bugging me ever since. This was the only image on a drive by, but my abiding memory is how grey it was above including the head and this image suggests black on the end of the primaries and secondaries... as we flew past at eye level and then we were gone!

What would you vote for?

Thanks
g

[John Cantelo]

it looks more like a Grey Heron to me!

[Steve G]

Grey Heron was also my impression.

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Originally Posted by John Cantelo

it looks more like a Grey Heron to me!

Likewise :)

[Parker]

Another for Grey Heron.

[Steve Dudley]

Ditto here - Grey Heron

[gradders52]

Deffo not a Grey Heron (shows how bad a pic can be), I had clear views of it, if you look closely, bottom left is the beak and head as it looked downward and hunted over cliff/hillside edge.

I have always favoured male hen harrier, but those black wing edges haunt me and does anyone know if Montagus ever turn up that far north?

thanks
g

[Simon Wates]

OK, if its definitely not a Grey Heron and was a harrier sp - then it must be Hen really. The low res photo is full of artefacts so I would not trust any apparent Monties type markings - anyway the wings look far too broad.

[John Cantelo]

Originally Posted by gradders52

Deffo not a Grey Heron (shows how bad a pic can be), I had clear views of it, if you look closely, bottom left is the beak and head as it looked downward and hunted over cliff/hillside edge.

I have always favoured male hen harrier, but those black wing edges haunt me and does anyone know if Montagus ever turn up that far north?

thanks
g

Well, it is a puzzler then. What you see as a head, I think, I saw as a wing tip. The 'tail' seems to end in a blob which I thought represented feet. The secondaries look solidly blackish which wouldn't fit either Monties or Hen Harrier. However, as already observed the photo is full of artefacts nothing would seem certain although on range Hen Harrier would be far more likely,

[knotsbirder]

First thought Grey Heron but I took a closer look and I'd now say male Hen Harrier. The red circle being over what I think is the head and the arrow pointing to what looks like the beak.

Cheers, Sam

[knotsbirder]

I'll try again...

[Liquid Len]

Another one for Grey Heron, despite what has been said to the contrary! The highlighting in the pic in Knotsbirder's post above shows the wing tip of the nearest wing, as John Cantelo says and not the bird's head/bill 'looking down'. If it was, then the bird - whatever it was - would have been horrifically deformed! The whole attitude and jizz of the bird looks wrong for a harrier sp - perhaps even for a raptor of any description!!

[Andy Hurley]

its a He(ro)n Harrier

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

The pattern on the primary coverts confirms Grey Heron, and the solidly dark secondaries rules out Hen Harrer

[Ratal]

Grey Heron vote here. No way a Hen Harrier male.

[Jane Turner]

I see a Grey heron too

[phil baber]

I saw a Grey Heron earlier yesterday. Am seeing it still...

Now I'm not so sure. Maybe the apparent dark secondaries are an artifact?

That croft behind has mussed things up as well. If Gradders said it was a Harrier? I've read his posts for a long time. I don't think he would have intentionally taken a pic of a GH and tried to pass it off as a Harrier? And what has he have to profit by that anyway?

I'm in the Harrier camp. With the fantastic Grey Heron illusion noted. Though which Harrier?

So shoot me down in artifacts!

[knotsbirder]

Thats also the main reason I thought it couldn't have been a Grey Heron. It sounds like it wasn't a particularly brief view, his description sounds very much like a Harrier, and I'm sure anybody with at least a little birding experience on a prolonged view could distinguish between the two. At first I saw Grey Heron in the picture too, however on a second look it appears to look like a Hen Harrier looking almost straight at the camera. The wing edges seem to be where the light blue lines are on the below graphic, the dark line points to what appears to be a white rump, the green line to the eye and the red line to the bill. It cannot be anything other than a Hen Harrier. I'm sure the OP won't mind me saying that it isn't the best of images from which to judge, as the white balance seems to be wrong and the croft is fouling things up quite a bit.

Cheers, Sam

[tconzemi]

So let me add something too
We all agree that first impression is Grey Heron, but have a closer look at the far right wing from below showing clear cut dark fingertips ruling out Heron, HH for me

[Brian2]

Just shows how a photgraph isn't always helpful....I'm sure given views of this bird we'd all go with Gradders and say Harrier..probably Hen (but maybe Monties) but you have to work the photo long and hard to see past Grey Heron but the more you look the more you see the opportunity to see Harrier.

[John Cantelo]

Originally Posted by tconzemi

So let me add something too
We all agree that first impression is Grey Heron, but have a closer look at the far right wing from below showing clear cut dark fingertips ruling out Heron, HH for me

Oddly enough, I just can't see what you describe regarding the right wing and wouldn't be confident that my interpretation was right even if I could!

The obvious answer to my mind is that 'gradders' did indeed see a Hen Harrier. However, in peering through the viewfinder of his camera (which would have given a much poorer view), he mistakenly lined up on a previously unseen Grey Heron which he snapped in good faith as 'the' bird. This may sound far fetched to some, but I've had just such an experience several times. For example, this spring I had some fun snapping a dark phase Booted Eagle in Spain only to find when I reviewed the shots 50% were of a Black Kite. Fortunately both birds (one as a smaller dot) appeared in a couple of shots. I find when concentrating on getting that photo, the ID part of my brain isn't always functioning 100% (does it ever?)

[tconzemi]

Originally Posted by John Cantelo

Oddly enough, I just can't see what you describe regarding the right wing and wouldn't be confident that my interpretation was right even if I could!
the ID part of my brain isn't always functioning 100% (does it ever?)

LOL

Just had a second magnified look at what seemed obvious to me: we are talking about 2 pixels with some jpeg artefacts around them so forget what I said, as the initial question was Hen or Monty the obvious answer is: IMPOSSIBLE

[gradders52]

Sorry to have caused so much angst.

While you may never be convinced it has helped me ask myself the right questions and now I am 90% convinced it was a male hen harrier.

For those that you who will question that decision and I recognise how difficult it is from one impossible image, it is imprinted on my memory as my first male hen harrier (subject to confirmation!). What I didn't mention earlier (my fault) was the bird was 'coursing' the cliff edge/hillside... grey herons don't do that, and it was 'holding in the wind' (which is the only reason I was able to capture one rubbish image)... again grey herons don't do that, so on behaviour alone, rules out grey heron.

Secondly, I live next to a watercourse and could see grey herons every day, as opposed to every other day if I went down there; there is a heronry less than a mile away and herons on my favoured patch – I've seen more grey herons than I have had hot dinners, I've seen them from every angle except upside down I think, mind you when corvids give them a going over... so I've added some images from MY photo library of grey herons. (I don't think any come close to a match).

I have scoured tinternet for images of male hen harriers and more than happy to put that to bed as an id... so I've added some mangled images, as close as I can to match,
1 the angle,
2 the dark wing edges (I had not appreciated the variation and how dark they can be in some birds, so that settles that doubt) and
3 some images that sort of matches my memory of what I saw,
not forgetting I clocked the bird on approach, managed to get the camera on it as we passed and the bird 'soared off' (something again grey herons don't do).

So my apologies if I have wasted your time, it has helped me a great deal and I am thankful to all of you for that, but as I thought at the time, male hen harrier for me. The only doubt really was Montagu's and I don't think that now comes into it. I also see there are numerous sightings of male HH on the Western Isles – do for me.

Thanks to one and all.

And if you still think its a grey heron, that's fine by me too.

I'v attached a couple of images of the original photo same size and in-between just out of interest and for comparison. (only one image, limit of 5 images reached)

Next time I go to Scotland...

and for those who can be bothered, photo taken on the road to Ardmore/Trumpan (NW Skye)... Wheatear, heard a corncrake and saw a basking shark on same trip.... EPIC!

[Simon Wates]

Originally Posted by gradders52

So my apologies if I have wasted your time, it has helped me a great deal and I am thankful to all of you for that,

Not at all Gradders, its a pleasure!

[John Cantelo]

I'm sure we'll let you know when we become angst ridden, but until them keep challenging us!