[arthurgrosset]

Unfortunately, these pigeons, which were feeding at a fruiting tree near Borba, south of Manaus on the rio Madeira, were not vocalizing which makes their identification somewhat problematic. They are either Ruddy Pigeon Columba subvinacea or Plumbeous Pigeon C. plumbeus.

My original identification was Ruddy Pigeon based on the HBW which says: "iris ranges from pink to purplish red to brownish, with pale inner ring; orbital skin dull red", while for Plumbeous Pigeon it says: "iris red; orbital skin purplish red". However, Hilty, in Birds of Venezuela, says of Ruddy Pigeon: "eyes red... note eye color (yellow in Plumbeous Pigeon)" which is all a bit confusing.

Can anybody help with the id?

[Andy Bright]

Hi Arthur, welcome to birdforum from all the staff here. I'm not in a position to confirm i.d. but I know we have plenty here who will.
I'm sure that everyone who uses birdforum would appreciate seeing your photos, please consider uploading some of your excellent work to our gallery http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/

The birdforum bird database http://www.birdforum.net/bird_index.php has close to 2,500 species in it now, but I'm sure you could increase this number.

regards,
Andy

[arthurgrosset]

Thanks Andy.

At the moment I'm still posting new photos from my last trip to Brazil on my own website but will certainly try to add some new species to your gallery in due course.

[cuckooroller]

Hi Arthur,
A Big Welcome to BF! We have communicated privately several times (weewilliewinkieus). I'm sure we'll be able to figure out your pigeon sooner or later. Welcome again.

[Tim Allwood]

Hiya

iris colour varies in subsecies unfortunately!

looks like it might be a delicata Plumbeous with that iris - these occur in northern Brazil

[cuckooroller]

Arthur,
At first glance, Hilty would be dealing possibly only with race delicata of P.plumbea and three possible races of subvinacea (peninsularis, zuliae, and purpureotincta). Possible race difference of iris color in the Brazilian ranging birds? In the zone of the shot it should be pallescens of the Plumbeous and race bogotensis of subvinacea I think.

[arthurgrosset]

Thanks Tim and Steve,

Steve, you are correct according to the ranges given in Clements (who I notice has changed the generic name from Columba to Patagioenas for the New World in line with the AOU). If the birds are Plumbeous they will be of the pallescens sub-species or if they Ruddy they will be of the bogotensis sub-species.

Unfortunately, I don't have any descriptions at the sub-species level.

Thanks for the warm welcome BTW

[Rasmus Boegh]

According to my knowledge Ruddy never show an eye-colour like this. I have seen many (throughout their range, incl. Brazil) and their eyes normally are reddish, sometimes brownish, but I have *never* seen an individual with pale eyes. On the other hand, the eye-colour of this individual is very typical Plumbeous (again, a species of which I have seen many, incl. in Brazil). Actually, I have also seen a single Plumbeous with a relatively dark eye, ID'ed via voice, but this must be rather unusual (Hilty's "Birds of Venezuela" indicate that this may be a juveniles feature). I think much of the (previous) confusion was due to a lack of knowledge. - Many features being judged from museum-specimens, where actual colour of eyes can't be seen. Shape and lenght of the tail is a bit hard to judge from the photos, but bill seem to point in the same direction (it is usually shorter & finer in Ruddy).

By the way, a very good website you have...

[cuckooroller]

For what it is worth, the few photos that I have of the Plumbeous all have the pale iris and the Ruddy have dark, usually red iridi.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Just thought I'd check up on a few sources, now that I am back home. It seems that the only other (than Hilty's "Birds of Venezuela) recently published good quality guide that deals with the ID of these two species mention the exact same features: Ridgely's "Birds of Ecuador" not only mention this feature, it is also clearly shown on the plate (#28). This source being significant as east Ecuadorian Ruddy's - according to my knowledge - belong to ssp. bogotensis, too. This is what they write under the description of Ruddy p. 173: "...Plumbeous somewhat heavier billed, and its iris is pale (not reddish)". Even Clement & Shany's (rather poor) "Birds of Peru" mention the feature, and thereby is consistent with my personal observations. So, if you see an individual with a strikingly pale eye, you can call it a Plumbeous. If the eye is reddish-brown, then we are probably looking at a Ruddy - the problem being that a few Plumbeous (juv?) apparently have dark eyes, too.

[Tim Allwood]

Eustace Barnes and David Gibbs' Pigeons and Doves monograph is an excellent resource for ID of these birds. This was what led me to Plumbeous too.

[arthurgrosset]

Thanks for all that input which was leading me to a tentative conclusion until I started to check Ridgely's "Birds of Ecuador" Volume 1 (on taxonomy, etc.)

Here he mentions 2 races for Ruddy Pigeon: ogilviegranti and berlepschi.

For Plumbeous Pigeon he mentions 3 races in Ecuador: chapmani, pallescens and bogotensis. But bogotensis is a sub-species of Ruddy not of Plumbeous according to my references.

Checking all this with John Penhallurick's Bird Data Project at http://worldbirdinfo.net/ I find no mention of bogotensis under Plumbeous and furthermore the fact that ogilviegranti is a synonym for bogotensis.

I also wonder if the pallescens sub-species occurs in Ecuador since all other references seem to restrict this race to "southern tributaries of the Amazon from river Purus (which is at least 1000km east of Ecuador) to Para"

Which leads me to wonder how reliable Ridgely's "Birds of Ecuador" is with regard to these 2 species.

Googling "Columba plumbea bogotensis", the only hit is a Field Guides Trip List for Ecuador in 2003, presumably using Ridgely as its source.

I am confused.

[Rasmus Boegh]

Originally Posted by arthurgrosset

Thanks for all that input which was leading me to a tentative conclusion until I started to check Ridgely's "Birds of Ecuador" Volume 1 (on taxonomy, etc.)

Here he mentions 2 races for Ruddy Pigeon: ogilviegranti and berlepschi.

For Plumbeous Pigeon he mentions 3 races in Ecuador: chapmani, pallescens and bogotensis. But bogotensis is a sub-species of Ruddy not of Plumbeous according to my references.

Checking all this with John Penhallurick's Bird Data Project at http://worldbirdinfo.net/ I find no mention of bogotensis under Plumbeous and furthermore the fact that ogilviegranti is a synonym for bogotensis.

I also wonder if the pallescens sub-species occurs in Ecuador since all other references seem to restrict this race to "southern tributaries of the Amazon from river Purus (which is at least 1000km east of Ecuador) to Para"

Which leads me to wonder how reliable Ridgely's "Birds of Ecuador" is with regard to these 2 species.

Googling "Columba plumbea bogotensis", the only hit is a Field Guides Trip List for Ecuador in 2003, presumably using Ridgely as its source.

I am confused.

I believe Ridgely's argument is that he (or a source he used) checked the type specimen of bogotensis and discovered it had been mis-ID'ed and actually was a Plumbeous (similar cases are discovered on an almost monthly basis). Thereby the name second in line would be the correct one for this taxon of Ruddy and that is ogilviegranti. Actually, the type-specimen of bogotensis was originally (more than 100 years ago) described as a new race of Plumbeous, only to be re-examined and then placed under Ruddy. The final word has not been said in this matter, I am sure. In any case, if this assumption is true, this is a nothing but a taxonomic discussion, involving the ID of the type-specimen. Thereby it has no importance for ID of the birds we see today - same bird, different names!

[arthurgrosset]

Thanks Rasmus.

Since "Birds of Ecuador" shows Plumbeous with a whitish iris and Ruddy with a red iris, I thought it might be relevant to establish which sub-species these illustrations were based on because, presumably, there is a possibility that iris colour changes between sub-species.

As you said earlier, it looks very much as though these birds are Plumbeous Pigeon.

Thanks for all your help.

[arthurgrosset]

Just as a postscript to this thread, Jose Fernando Pacheco, coordinator of the Brazilian Records Committee tells me that Hellmayr (1910. The birds of the rio Madeira) mentions "iris brown" for the Plumbeous Pigeon Columba plumbea pallescens collected at Borba. Unfortunately, Hellmayr didn't collect any specimens of Ruddy Pigeon in the area.

Pacheco suggests that iris colour may be a valid diagnostic indicator only in certain parts of the respective ranges.

So I think I'll leave the id as Columba sp. which, following AOU, should now be Patagioenas sp.

[Rasmus Boegh]

A comment and a request...

Originally Posted by Rasmus Boegh

So, if you see an individual with a strikingly pale eye, you can call it a Plumbeous. If the eye is reddish-brown, then we are probably looking at a Ruddy - the problem being that at least a few Plumbeous (juv?) apparently have dark eyes, too.

As mentioned previously, there is no doubt that Plumbeous can have dark eyes. I saw a single individual with brown eyes (ID'ed via voice) in Venezuela - an area where all other Plumbeous I saw had pale eyes. All Plumbeous I have seen in Ecuador (both sides of the Andes), Peru, Bolivia & Brazil have also been pale-eyed. So, no doubt that they usually have pale eyes (at least in the localities I have been to). Having said that, I don't think anyone disputed that they can have darker eyes (as also mentioned in Birds of Venezuela and Birds of Peru). Therefore, I don't think this is a "direct ID". Rather, an ID via elimination. Personally, I have doubt the birds are Plumbeous, quite simply because I have been unable to find any indications supporting that this strikingly pale eye-colour ever occur in Ruddy. Hence, I believe Ruddy can be eliminated as a possibility, leaving Plumbeous. This would have been much more complicated if the bird had been dark-eyed, but luckily it is not...

The request: If anybody can point in the direction of anything saying that Ruddy ever have pale eyes, I'd be very pleased to see it...