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Old Friday 15th February 2013, 10:59   #1
Richard Klim
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House Crows, Hoek van Holland

It seems that the Dutch population will remain for now.

From Dutch Birding 35(1), 2013...
Quote:
Nadat begin december bekend werd dat provincie Zuid-Holland vergunning had afgegeven voor het elimineren van de populatie Huiskraaien Corvus splendens, werden de vogels in Hoek van Holland, Zuid-Holland, dagelijks door veel vogelaars en overige belangstellenden bezocht. In totaal werden c 25-30 exemplaren geteld, waaronder de bekende lichte vogel met kenmerken van Zugmayers Huiskraai C s zugmayeri (een noordwestelijke ondersoort). Tegenstanders van de bestrijdingsactie tekenden met succes bezwaar aan; de rechter besloot om voorlopig niet tot eliminatie over te gaan, omdat de Huiskraai is aangewezen als beschermde inheemse soort.
With a little help from Google Translate...
Quote:
At the beginning of December it was announced that Zuid-Holland province had issued a permit to eliminate the population of House Crows Corvus splendens, the birds in Hoek van Holland, Zuid-Holland, visited daily by many birders and other interested parties. In total, c 25-30 examples were counted, including the famous bright bird with characteristics of Zugmayer's House Crow C s zugmayeri (a northwestern subspecies). Opponents of the control program successfully signed an objection, and the judge decided to temporarily not proceed with elimination, because the House Crow is designated as a protected native species. (!!!)
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Old Saturday 16th February 2013, 22:48   #2
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This will be an interesting event to look back on if the species ever gets established continent-wide. 30 is a pretty small population, but remember, it only took 100 Starlings to take over North America.
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Old Sunday 17th February 2013, 06:41   #3
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One day you lot will understand the principals of evolution. Some species succeed, others fail.

Extinction and change are nothing to be afraid of.

The so called threats to native species by others (however they have arrived) is part of the mechanisms that generate competition.

House crows ability to tolerate the human world is a selective advantage that allow it to spread and succeed in areas that other species cannot.

In order to stop it taking advantage of its advantage humans have to kill them.

This is counter evolutionary and counter the mechanisms that has kept life on earth for millennia.

Sustainability does not require conservation only conservation requires conservation.

You will never get the human world to interact in a sympathetic way with natural processes e.g. evolution, if you invent a system (conservation) that is an anthropogenic construct (not reflected any where else in the natural world) and then slaughter all sorts of species in its name.
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Old Wednesday 20th February 2013, 23:56   #4
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How do they interact with Hooded Crows?
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 01:17   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John o'Sullivan View Post
One day you lot will understand the principals of evolution. Some species succeed, others fail.
"You lot" wow!, arrogance on a pogo stick!

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Originally Posted by John o'Sullivan View Post
You will never get the human world to interact in a sympathetic way with natural processes e.g. evolution, if you invent a system (conservation) that is an anthropogenic construct (not reflected any where else in the natural world) and then slaughter all sorts of species in its name.
John, John, John--when will you ever learn? We humans are the only game in town and all "constructs" are "anthropogenic" including the tenets of evolutionary theory.
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 07:48   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John o'Sullivan View Post
You will never get the human world to interact in a sympathetic way with natural processes e.g. evolution, if you invent a system (conservation) that is an anthropogenic construct (not reflected any where else in the natural world) and then slaughter all sorts of species in its name.
I think you will find that species are being slaughtered in the name of perceived progress (economic, scientific, political) and if you argue that this is simply nature taking its course and an acceptable form of evolution, then why cant you accept conservation even if you see it in the same light?
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 09:35   #7
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Originally Posted by John o'Sullivan View Post
One day you lot will understand the principals of evolution. Some species succeed, others fail.

One day, YOU will learn to spell... principles.
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 10:36   #8
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Originally Posted by LabradorDuck View Post
This will be an interesting event to look back on if the species ever gets established continent-wide. 30 is a pretty small population, but remember, it only took 100 Starlings to take over North America.
For those animal, plant and bird species 'introduced' in various ways in the past, when ignorance of possible hazards of doing so extended to all as the de facto position, the intention to extirpate them or diminish their occurrence is dependent on a host of aspects, such as evidence of threat, economic penalties of not doing so, and also on cost and ethics. Australia puts considerable resources into biosecurity these days, but in many cases, it may be 'shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted'.

For those animal, plant, and bird species 'introduced' in modern times, ignorance of possible hazards is no longer a valid starting position in the debate. It is distressingly true to say that many native species are in decline, and likely terminally so, but given that the stewardship of most species is a responsibility of humankind simply because of our hideously-well documented impact on our planet, where current accidental or deliberate introductions are identified, the only acceptable starting point is one of the precautionary principle, even if this merely puts off the demise of native species by a small amount.

The efforts to ensure that Califonia Condors have a sustainable population in the wild, may well be a futile gesture in the long term, but support of such projects, especially for 'non-glamorous' organisms, falls into what I see as admirable behaviour in the human race. The obsessive and habitual determination to see everything in the 'we are all doomed' category is an attitude which by default supports the past damaging actions of industry and politics, and can never be considered as a praiseworthy human attribute.

House Crows, like many corvids, are hugely adaptable, but they are not in any way a threatened species. I hate they idea of killing birds, in case anyone may think otherwise, but there is ample evidence of House Crow introduced populations beyond their natural range causing damage to native species, and so the extirpation of the birds in the Netherlands seems the least-worst course of action.
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 11:13   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John o'Sullivan View Post
One day you lot will understand the principals of evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMK View Post
One day, YOU will learn to spell... principles.
Perhaps John was referring to Darwin et al...
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 13:13   #10
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Further to my small rant this morning, see the following report from today, which suggests that the cost of invasive ('introductions' that have found a niche) species is higher than previously thought: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21509016
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Old Thursday 21st February 2013, 14:40   #11
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Perhaps John was referring to Darwin et al...
Or or more likely Hegel, Teilhard de Chardin et al....
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