[Andrew]

I have a Regatta waterproof jacket that is waterproof, windproof, blah, blah. . . There is one MAJOR gripe I have with waterproofs, they are NOT waterproof. What I mean is jackets with a cloth outerlayer and a waterproof membrane underneath. Now when it rains properly the outer layer gets wet and stays wet meaning you have to be careful when writing in your notebook, reading a novel on the bus/train home and so on. Another thing, this cloth outer layer runs inside the cuffs so the water soaks into your cuffs too giving cold and wet wrists.

I have managed to clobber together a bit of money for a sooper-dooper jacket and have always fancied the Paramo Vienta jacket at a princely £200 thinking it just has to be good and WATERPROOF at that price. However, it poured down recently while birding somewhere that escapes my memory and I saw someone with a Paramo and his was just as soaked as my Regatta.

What is your jacket and how waterproof is it? I don't want to know about bright yellow plastic jackets as I am after something comfortable and does the biz. What are the Country Innovation jackets like?

[very boring banned member]

Having been disappointed with all "gore-proof" -stuff I firmly believe that only waterproof cloth is plastic jacket (bright yellow colour also gives essential protection here to avoid being shot as an elk).

[DJ Sideboard]

I wouldn't spend £200 on a jacket unless you have some pretty extreme plans for it!. I have an expensive jacket that I only use for hill walking in serious conditions, mainly in winter. Otherwise you will find me in a £20 Peter Storm mac with a £6 pound tesco fleece on underneath!.

[Bill@dwp]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have a Regatta waterproof jacket that is waterproof, windproof, blah, blah. . . There is one MAJOR gripe I have with waterproofs, they are NOT waterproof. What I mean is jackets with a cloth outerlayer and a waterproof membrane underneath. Now when it rains properly the outer layer gets wet and stays wet meaning you have to be careful when writing in your notebook, reading a novel on the bus/train home and so on. Another thing, this cloth outer layer runs inside the cuffs so the water soaks into your cuffs too giving cold and wet wrists.

I have managed to clobber together a bit of money for a sooper-dooper jacket and have always fancied the Paramo Vienta jacket at a princely £200 thinking it just has to be good and WATERPROOF at that price. However, it poured down recently while birding somewhere that escapes my memory and I saw someone with a Paramo and his was just as soaked as my Regatta.

What is your jacket and how waterproof is it? I don't want to know about bright yellow plastic jackets as I am after something comfortable and does the biz. What are the Country Innovation jackets like?

Hi Andrew

I've got a North Face waterproof but that isnt knee length as I find that too restricting. No leakages except at the cuffs and it will stay wet as you say.

I've had Regatta's before this and they were worse and weren't machine washable.

I'm thinking about a Country Innovation jacket as well. They do a long one for about £100 (called the falcon I think) that isnt padded so you'd need a fleece or something underneath which I've seen and looks quite good and will fold up so you'd get it in a rucksack. I'd be interested in knowing what people think as well.

[Bluetail]

Hi Andrew. As you probably realise, I wear a Barbour - the "Border" model. Old hat, I know, but if it ain't bust and all that. It does leak a bit on top of the shoulders (not badly) for reasons I've never worked out, but otherwise is very good. Previously I had the heavyweight version of this, the "Northumberland", and couldn't fault its waterproofing in any way. I was once in the middle of nowhere when I heard an express train approaching - except that there was no railway anywhere in the area. I soon realised it was veritable waterfall of torrential rain. My trousers were completely sodden within three seconds, but the jacket didn't leak a drop. Trouble was it weighed a ton: it was like birding from inside a Churchill tank - which was why I downgraded.

There must be equally effective, but more comfortable products out there. I shall read this thread with interest.

[DJ Sideboard]

Originally Posted by Bluetail

As you probably realise, I wear a Barbour........Old hat, I know, but if it ain't bust and all that.

Good point. A well proofed Wax Jacket is likely to be as waterproof as anything.

A lot of modern shell fabrics are designed for active use, having an element of breathibility which is driven by the heat of your body driving moisture outwards through the material. They don't function as well for more static activities (like birding!), because you're generally not pumping out enough heat.

[trealawboy]

Originally Posted by DJ Sideboard

Good point. A well proofed Wax Jacket is likely to be as waterproof as anything.

A lot of modern shell fabrics are designed for active use, having an element of breathibility which is driven by the heat of your body driving moisture outwards through the material. They don't function as well for more static activities (like birding!), because you're generally not pumping out enough heat.

I have a Keela Kandura jacket http://www.keela.co.uk. It is waterproof and breathable, as proved in prolonged heavy rain on Friday. Whatsmore, it has two bellows pockets on the front that hold a notebook and fieldguide nicely. All for a rather modest £120, though I believe http://www.birdnet.co.uk sell them for a botu £95. A good review is found at http://www.bluedome.co.uk/trailwalk/...at=1&subcat=12

[Adey Baker]

I used to have a Barbour Northumbria and concur with most of what Jason says.

I think the leakage at the shoulder on the Border, which as Jason indicates, is identical in style to the Northumbria, is due to a less than wonderful design as far as birders are concerned - that is, the joint of two pieces of material goes across the top of the shoulder. Although the cloth does 'overlap' at the join, there is, inevitably, a slightly raised area at this overlap and this takes the full wear of anything carried over the shoulder - a heavy scope, for instance!

I'm left-handed and thus carry my scope, camera, or whatever over my left shoulder and sure enough the left shoulder of my jacket wore out despite giving it extra dollops of Barbour's proofing.

It's the kind of detail that shows how difficult it is to select the 'perfect' birders' jacket

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I have a Karrimor Goretex anorak. It's okay but suffers from the same problems of wet cuffs and the outers staying damp as the Regatta. I've got Karrimor boots as well, which are pretty terrible (and will be replaced as soon as I can afford it). Any water above a couple of inches deep or from wet grass just soaks in through the top.

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have a Regatta waterproof jacket that is waterproof, windproof, blah, blah. . . There is one MAJOR gripe I have with waterproofs, they are NOT waterproof. What I mean is jackets with a cloth outerlayer and a waterproof membrane underneath. Now when it rains properly the outer layer gets wet and stays wet meaning you have to be careful when writing in your notebook, reading a novel on the bus/train home and so on. Another thing, this cloth outer layer runs inside the cuffs so the water soaks into your cuffs too giving cold and wet wrists.

I have managed to clobber together a bit of money for a sooper-dooper jacket and have always fancied the Paramo Vienta jacket at a princely £200 thinking it just has to be good and WATERPROOF at that price. However, it poured down recently while birding somewhere that escapes my memory and I saw someone with a Paramo and his was just as soaked as my Regatta.

What is your jacket and how waterproof is it? I don't want to know about bright yellow plastic jackets as I am after something comfortable and does the biz. What are the Country Innovation jackets like?

I believe that Paramo jackets are 100% windproof and waterproof; they also, uniquely, dry you out if you put them on over something that is a bit wet. I have never yet got even remotely damp in mine... but if you don't re-proof them after a few years, then I imagine what you saw could well result. Fortunately, reproofing is a doddle and the garments are 100% returned to original condition. This is unique to Paramo so far as I know as the there is no waterproofing membrane to break down irreparably as will happen eventually in other coats. You reproof by washing the coat using "NikWax" liquid - a cinch to do in the washing machine.

I first bought a Paramo jacket a couple of years ago after years of this and that and I'll never again buy another make. They are, by a large margin indeed, easily the best water/wind proof coats I've owned and, unlike all other makes, are soft, light and so v-e-r-y comfy with absolutely no rustling as you move; they should last for years.

I first bought an Alta jacket and a year or so back added to this with a combination of Taiga fleece and Fuera jacket which is very flexible. The fleece is the most comy coat I've ever owned - it's nothing at all like other fleeces. I saved quite a bit by buying in the sales, but I know it's not that easy to find discounts as Paramo seems to sell without such offers. My two teenage sons have similar and speak equally highly - they think that they look cool too!

I'd go for it - I don't think for one moment you'll regret it. They seem to be a company with a very high level of integrity.

[Tero]

Rain ponchos are good in some situations, in that you have room to carry some gear under them, even a book or something.

[DJ Sideboard]

Originally Posted by Andrew Whitehouse

I've got Karrimor boots as well, which are pretty terrible (and will be replaced as soon as I can afford it).

I had a pair of Karrimor boots which fell apart after 14 days use. I nearly had to go to court to get a refund from the shop concerned (Blacks). I'd advise anyone to avoid both like the plague.

[helenol]

I have an 10yr old Barbour, the Bedale model, bit scruffy looking now, but it does the job re keeping the rain out. I've only waxed it twice in all that time. Which reminds me....

[michaelboustead]

Originally Posted by scampo

I believe that Paramo jackets are 100% windproof and waterproof; they also, uniquely, dry you out if you put them on over something that is a bit wet. I have never yet got even remotely damp in mine... but if you don't re-proof them after a few years, then I imagine what you saw could well result. Fortunately, reproofing is a doddle and the garments are 100% returned to original condition. This is unique to Paramo so far as I know as the there is no waterproofing membrane to break down irreparably as will happen eventually in other coats. You reproof by washing the coat using "NikWax" liquid - a cinch to do in the washing machine.

I first bought a Paramo jacket a couple of years ago after years of this and that and I'll never again buy another make. They are, by a large margin indeed, easily the best water/wind proof coats I've owned and, unlike all other makes, are soft, light and so v-e-r-y comfy with absolutely no rustling as you move; they should last for years.

I first bought an Alta jacket and a year or so back added to this with a combination of Taiga fleece and Fuera jacket which is very flexible. The fleece is the most comy coat I've ever owned - it's nothing at all like other fleeces. I saved quite a bit by buying in the sales, but I know it's not that easy to find discounts as Paramo seems to sell without such offers. My two teenage sons have similar and speak equally highly - they think that they look cool too!

I'd go for it - I don't think for one moment you'll regret it. They seem to be a company with a very high level of integrity.

I would second what you wrote concerning Nikwax. It does a pretty good job of reproofing the outerlayer. I think most gore-tex items while keeping you dry because of the membrane layer lose waterproofing on the outside layer. Nikwax does seem to help here.

Mike

[Andrew]

This is great feedback . . .

Jason and Helen,
I can see the Barbour Jackets are very good but far too heavy for me and a bit "greasy". I tried one in my angling days and ended up with the wax contaminating several aspects of my fishing. It was like you say, Jason, a tad heavy.

trelawboy,
The Keela on Birdnet so well modelled by tom mckinney (I think) looks the biz and seems quite functional but I need to see one and wear it before buying it. It is a bit of a gamble for me to buy one over the net and could be that I don't like it. I hope Tom chips in with a few words on this model.

Scampo,
I suspected the soaking Paramo I saw might have needed reproofing with the two bottle kit you get with the jacket. How often does it need reproofing? Cos if it means buying a kit every six months then that is a bit much. Does the kit last more than one treatment?

Andrew Whitehouse,
I have a free day tomorrow and will be trying on the Paramo jackets but the shop I favour does stock Karrimor. I have Karrimor overtrousers and think they are cracking so I shall give the Karrimors a look.



When I was an angler all the jacket manufacturers made an effort to include STORM FLAPS on the cuffs and they were excellent in keeping your wrists dry. I still have a three quarter length jacket and bib'n'braces left over in excellent condition with all the techno mumbo jumbo credited to it. Problem is it is very thick and I would sweat on the way to the peg (fishing spot). Hence I need a lighter yet not too light jacket I can wear over my fleece in winter and on it's own in Spring/Autumn.

[digi-birder]

Originally Posted by Bill@dwp

I'm thinking about a Country Innovation jacket as well. They do a long one for about £100 (called the falcon I think) that isnt padded so you'd need a fleece or something underneath which I've seen and looks quite good and will fold up so you'd get it in a rucksack. I'd be interested in knowing what people think as well.

I have a Country Innovation Falcon jacket and I find it very good. It's waterproof and windproof and doesn't rustle, although I do put a fleece underneath in very cold conditions. It's very lightweight and does fold/roll up to go into a rucksack.

My only gripe is that I bought mine just before they brought a version out for women and the sleeves are a bit long for me, despite it being the smallest size. I'm not about to go out and spend another £95 though, just for shorter sleeves. Strangely, the women's version still fastens up the men's way, though.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by digi-birder

I have a Country Innovation Falcon jacket and I find it very good. It's waterproof and windproof and doesn't rustle, although I do put a fleece underneath in very cold conditions. It's very lightweight and does fold/roll up to go into a rucksack.

My only gripe is that I bought mine just before they brought a version out for women and the sleeves are a bit long for me, despite it being the smallest size. I'm not about to go out and spend another £95 though, just for shorter sleeves. Strangely, the women's version still fastens up the men's way, though.

Does the outer layer stay dry in REAL rain without soaking up moisture and staying wet?

[digi-birder]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Does the outer layer stay dry in REAL rain without soaking up moisture and staying wet?

In real rain, as opposed to that pretend stuff the water does not bead and run off - it soaks into the fabric, but dries very quickly.

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Scampo,
I suspected the soaking Paramo I saw might have needed reproofing with the two bottle kit you get with the jacket. How often does it need reproofing? Cos if it means buying a kit every six months then that is a bit much. Does the kit last more than one treatment?

I have the Nikwax but I've never had to re-proof mine yet. Looking at the bottles of Nikwax, I think they'll last for a couple of treatments at least. I think an annual reproof is recommended but mine are still completely waterproof and clean.

What seems to me unique about Paramo kit is that it has no bonded or inner waterproofing membrane. This allows the coat to be lighter and much softer; it also means that each time you re-proof your coat, you bring it back to new condition.

If you call in to one of their stockists, I think you'll find them very clued up and helpful. My son bought his from "At the Mountain" in Loughborough - top class service and knowledge there.

You might also find this interesting. It's from Paramo - as you might expect, they exude confidence about their products but I've never heard a single adverse comment and when I bought the coats, there were several very positive web reviews online:

http://www.paramo.co.uk/UK/guarantee.html

[David FG]

Can't beat a Barbour IMHO - bit stereotypical, I suppose

[scampo]

Originally Posted by michaelboustead

I would second what you wrote concerning Nikwax. It does a pretty good job of reproofing the outerlayer. I think most gore-tex items while keeping you dry because of the membrane layer lose waterproofing on the outside layer. Nikwax does seem to help here.

Mike

They're available in the US, too, then, Mike? It's good to think that a small British company is prospering in such a tough market! But they do have a particularly innovative and good product.

[Andrew]

Scampo,
I have actually had a demonstration and try of the Paramo coats in an independent specialist retailer who was pretty clued up and was very impressed but the price made me go away and think. That was last year and I have saved up as well as experienced the final straw when my Regatta got soaked on the outside. I was impressed with the Nikwax too. The dealer usually gives me a healthy discount too so that will be a factor when I look tomorrow.

Diane,
Thanks for telling me that. Should have used the words stair rods, that is 'real' rain!

[Edward woodwood]

Birders? Anoraks? perish the thought

I use Phoenix Gore-tex shell coat
cost me £125 about 17 years ago.
It's the business and has been everywhere with me
windproof too and mega light

[Andrew]

Hi Tim,
Tried Googling Phoenix and got a lot of crap, hard to track them down. You got a link handy?

[trealawboy]

[quote=Andrew]

trelawboy,
The Keela on Birdnet so well modelled by tom mckinney (I think) looks the biz and seems quite functional but I need to see one and wear it before buying it. It is a bit of a gamble for me to buy one over the net and could be that I don't like it. I hope Tom chips in with a few words on this model.

That was my philosophy too. Keela sent me a list of UK stockists. I phoned the one up in Brecon and as it happened they were ordering from Keela that day. I ordered one on a non-commitment basis.

A week later the jacket was in the shop. I tried it on an it fitted a treat, size large. It fits well, the fabric is great. Maybe a tad heavier than a County Innovations jacket, but certainly very comfortable, and I've worn it for three full days in the filed in the wind and very, very heavy rain. It has zippers for a inner fleece if required and a number of outher nice touches. Its easily as good if not better than the likes of Berghaus etc.

I really like the front pockets for those notebooks and filedguides though. That's what set me onto this jacket in the first place after seeing one in the Birdfair. I actually got a carbon/black rather than the greenish one on Birdnet.